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- SANDEHA
NIVARINI
A
Word to the Reader
A
Word to the Reader
"I am the Sai Baba of Shirdi come again;
then, I was mostly engaged in preparing the meal; now I have come
to feed you all with the strengthening, purifying repast", says
Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba. He announced thus, in his fourteenth
year, while casting away his schoolbooks and addressing the first
gathering of devotees in 1940. Ever since, Baba has been consoling
correcting, and curing, with His compassion and all-conquering
Prema, an ever-increasing band of physical and spiritual sufferers
and establishing the new Sai era of peace of joy.
As part of His mission of Dharmasthapana,
Baba started in February 1956 a monthly magazine to which He gave
the significant name, Sanathana Sarathi. Evidently, He meant to
declare Himself more clearly through that title, the fact that He
is both Sanathana (ancient) and Sarathi (the charioteer of all
physically-embodied beings). He announced that the Sanathana
Sarathi is engaged in a campaign against falsehood of all types
and varieties, and also against the spirit of selfishness. This
series of dialogues with Baba, published in the magazine
originally in Telugu, unravels the mysteries of spiritual truth
and lovingly removes the mist that hides the vision of aspirants.
Perused with care and faith, these dialogues are bound to clarify,
reinforce and convince. May the perusal lead you nearer and nearer
the goal.
N. Kasturi, New Year 1985
Dialogue I
Top of the page
Bhaktha: Swami, can we ask you
freely about any topic concerning the spiritual path, which we do
not know?
Swami: Certainly. What is the objection? Why this doubt?
What am I here for? Is it not for explaining to you things you do
not know? You can ask me without any fear or hesitation. I am
always ready to answer; only, I want earnest inquiry with a desire
to know.
Bhaktha: But some elders say it is
wrong to vex the Guru with questions. Are they right, Swami?
Swami: That is not correct. Whom else can the disciple
approach? Since the Guru is everything to him, it is best that he
consults him in all matters and then acts.
Bhaktha: Some say that we should
reverentially carry out whatever the elders ask us to do without
raising any objections. Is that your command also?
Swami: Until you develop full faith in them and know that
their words are valid, it will be difficult for you to carry out
their orders reverentially. So, until then, it won't be wrong to
ask them the significance and the validity of their orders, so
that you may be convinced.
Bhaktha: Swami, whom are we to
believe, whom are we to discard? The world is so full of deceit.
When those, whom we believed are good, themselves turn out to be
bad, how can faith grow?
Swami: Well, My boy! Where is the need for you in this
world or any world to grow faith in others? Believe in yourself,
first. Then believe in the Lord, Paramatma. When you have faith in
these two, neither the good nor the bad will affect you.
Bhaktha: Swami, faith in the Lord
too diminishes sometimes. What is the reason for that?
Swami: When one is deluded by the mere external world and
when one does not attain success in such external desires, faith
in the Lord diminishes. So, give up such desires. Desire only for
the spiritual relationship; then you won't become the target of
doubts and difficulties. The important thing for this is faith in
the Lord; without that, you start doubting everything, big and
small.
Bhaktha: Until we understand the
reality of Paramatma, it is important, they say, to be in the
company of the great and the good and also to have a Guru. Are
these necessary?
Swami: Of course, the company of the great and the good is
necessary. To make that reality known to you, a Guru too is
important. But, in this matter, you should be very careful.
Genuine Gurus are scarce these days. Cheats have multiplied and
teachers have retreated into solitude, in order to realise
themselves undisturbed. There are many genuine Gurus but they
cannot be secured easily. Even if you get them, you must thank
your destiny if they vouchsafe to you more that one single
Sadvakya; they won't spend time telling you all kinds of stories!
There should be no hurry in the search for a Guru.
Bhaktha: Then, what in the world is
the path?
Swami: Why, it is just for this that we have the Veda,
Sastra, Purana and Ithihasa. Study them; adhere to the path they
teach and gather the experience; understand their meaning and the
trend of their message from Pundits; follow them in practice;
meditate on the Paramatma as the Guru and as God; then, those
books themselves will help you as your Guru. For, what is a Guru?
The Guru is that through which your mind gets fixed on God. If you
consider Paramatma as the Guru and do Sadhana with unshakable
love, the Lord Himself will appear before you and give Upadesa
just as a Guru. Or, He may so bless you that as a result of the
Sadhana, you may meet a Sadguru.
Bhaktha: But, nowadays, some great
big persons are granting Upadesa to all who ask; are these not
Sadgurus, Swami?
Swami: I won't say they are or they are not. I declare only
this: It is not the sign of a Sadguru to grant Upadesa to any and
every person who comes to him with praise, without considering the
past and the future, without discovering the qualifications of the
pupil and testing whether he is fit.
Bhaktha: Then Swami, I have
committed a blunder! When one great person arrived at our village,
and when all were receiving Upadesa from him, I too went and
prostrated before him and asked him for it. He granted me a good
Upadesa; I repeated the Manthra for some time, but, soon, I came
to know that the great person was a cheat. Since that day, I lost
faith in the name he gave me; I gave up Manthra. Was this wrong?
Or, am I right?
Swami: Do you doubt the right and wrong of this? It is very
wrong. Just as the Guru, as I told you now, examines the
qualifications of the disciple, the disciple too has to critically
examine the credentials of the Guru before receiving Upadesa. Your
first mistake was that you did not pay attention to this but
hastily accepted Upadesa. Well, even if the Guru gave it without
the necessary qualification, why did you break your vow and stop
repeating the name? That is the second mistake: casting the fault
of another on the sacred name of God. Before receiving Upadesa,
you should have taken time and known his genuineness and enveloped
faith in him. Then, when the desire to accept him as Guru emerged,
you should have received the Upadesa. But, once you accept, you
must repeat it, whatever the difficulty; you should not give it
up. Otherwise, you commit the wrong of accepting without
deliberation and rejecting without deliberation. That wrong will
be on your head. You should accept a name when you are still
afflicted by doubt or a name which you do not prefer. Having
accepted, you should not give it up.
Bhaktha: What happens when it is
given up?
Swami: Well, my boy. Disloyalty to the Guru and discarding
the name of God - on account of these, your one-pointed endeavour
and concentration will wither away. As the saying goes, "The
diseased seedling can never grow into a tree".
Bhaktha: But if the Guru grants the
Manthra though we lack the merit?
Swami: Such a Guru is no Guru. The result of his wrong act
won't fall on you. The evil of that wrong will devolve on him
only.
Bhaktha: If the disciple acts
according to the promise made to the Guru, irrespective of what
the Guru may turn out to be, and honours him as before, can he
realise the goal?
Swami: Certainly, what doubt is there? Don't you know the
story of Ekalavya? Though Dronacharya did not accept him as his
disciple, he installed an image and took it as Dronacharya
himself; revering as such, he learnt archery and achieved mastery
of all arts. Finally, when the Guru, blinded by injustice, asked
for his right thumb as his fees, he offered if gladly. Did
Ekalavya take to heart the injury done by the Guru?
Bhaktha: Of what avail was that
offer? His education was all a waste, that was all. What was the
net result of his achievement?
Swami: Though Ekalavya lost all chance of using his skill,
the character that he earned by that training was never lost. Is
not the fame he acquired by his sacrifice enough compensation?
Bhaktha: Well, what is past is
past. Hereafter at least I shall hold fast and try not to discard
the name. Please grant me Upadesa yourself.
Swami: Your attitude is just like that of the person who,
after having witnessed the Ramayana being enacted throughout the
night, asked some one at daybreak how Rama was related to Sita! I
was telling you that the Guru and the Upadesa will come when your
qualifications ripen. It will come by itself. There is no need for
you to ask! Really speaking, the disciple should not ask for
Upadesa on his own. He cannot be aware of his being ripe for it.
The Guru will be watching for the proper moment and he will
himself bless and help. You should not get Upadesa more than once.
It is not repeatable. If you give up one Upadesa and take up
another, whenever you feel like it, you will be like a married
woman gone astray.
Bhaktha: So, what is my fate now?
Is there no way to save myself?
Swami: Repent for the mistake committed, but continue
meditating on the name you received. For Namasmarana, apart from
Japa, you can use as many names as you like. For Dhyana, the name
got by Upadesa alone should be used, remember. Don't change that
sacred name; transform yourself by persistent yearning and effort
and proceed.
Bhaktha: Swami! Today is indeed a
great day; for all doubts have disappeared by the message you
gave. As you said, Upadesa created the doubt; Your Sandesha
dispelled it. If permitted, I will return now to my place and when
I come again, I will bring some new doubts to be cast away in Your
presence in exchange for peace and joy. If you so command, I shall
come next month.
Swami: Very good. That is exactly what I want - that
persons like you should rid themselves of doubts, should grasp the
real significance of life and welcoming the Sandesha with faith
and steadfastness; dwell in constant remembrance of the name of
the Lord. Whenever you come, whatever comes, learn from Me the
method and means of ridding yourself of grief and doubt and worry.
Never suffer from grief; for with that pain inside you, you will
not be able to do any Sadhana. Whatever Sadhana you do will be
like rose water poured on ash. Very well, go now and come later.
Dialogue II
Top of the page
Bhaktha: Namaskaram, Swami.
Swami: Happy to see you. You seem very tired and in this
summer, travel is even more exhausting. Take rest for a little
while, we can converse thereafter.
Bhaktha: When there is no peace of
mind where can rest be got?
Swami: Well my boy, rest is for the sake of peace of mind.
Once you have that peace, where is the need for rest? There is
need for a bandage until the wound heals; after that, what is its
use?
Bhaktha: Swami, just now my mind is
restless. I cannot decide upon anything. I do not know what the
reason is. What shall I do?
Swami: Well, no effect can take place without a cause. You
do certainly know the cause of your present condition... Well,
nothing else need be done: At such times of mental pain, do
Namasmarana for a while sitting in a lonely place; or sing Bhajan
songs loudly in a raised voice; or if that is not possible, spread
the bed and sleep for some time. Thereafter you can think about
all this.
Bhaktha: You have told us that in
this world, each one has some dearly loved thing or other, and
that if any harm comes upon that thing, peace of mind cannot be
had... How then can I have peace of mind, when something happens
like this... another person either disrespecting my dearly loved
thing, or finding fault with it? What am I to do then?
Swami: Well. A good person who has understood what is
Atmavichara will not blame like this the things that others love.
Nor will he even associate with such men. For he would argue
within himself, that when he blames another's Ishtam, he will feel
as much pain as he himself feels when his own Ishtam is blamed.
Therefore, be at peace with yourself, realising that those who
abuse like this are people ignorant of Atmavichara. Engaged as you
are in Atmavichara, you have nothing to do with ignorant persons
who do not know Atmavichara... Well. Let it go. What has really
happened to cause all this? The whole trouble will end, if what is
inside comes out.
Bhaktha: The world knows well how
You are vouchsafing courage and daring and guiding men to do good
spiritually, physically, and mentally; how You have rendered
educational and medical help. You have never done any harm; nor
caused harm to any one in any form... How to suppress the persons
who invent and spread all kinds of silly stories about such as
You? Do they gain anything by this?
Swami: Oh. So this is the story! Well don't you know that
good and bad are of the very nature of the world? If all are
engaged in selling, who will be the buyers? With regard to God,
fault finding has come down from the beginning of time; it is not
new; only, present day persons might manufacture some new tales.
Well, why should you take to heart such abuse? Take it that they
are only remembering Swami by this means. Premasmarana and
Dweshasmarana are two types. Of these, Dweshasmarana is
Avidyamaya; it is related to Rajoguna. Premasmarana is Vidyamaya;
it is related to Sathwaguna. Avidyamaya results in Dukha;
Vidyamaya results in Ananda. Their results are indicated there
itself. Now, why should you suppress? You asked about the gain
isn't it? They don't need any gain; finding fault with others has
become their habit; they do it as their duty. As the saying goes,
"What does the moth care or gain, whether the Sari costs a hundred
Tankas or is cheap? To gnaw and tear is its nature". The moth
tears equally a costly sari or a rag. Does it know the value of
things? Its work is such. So be at peace, realising that the work
of these faultfinders is the same as the work of these moths.
Bhaktha: Swami! What You said is
the truth. We can take it that ignorant persons, when they behave
like this, are of the brood of moths. But, when people who are
well educated, who are great, who know, when these are devoting
themselves to spreading such stories, how can it be endured?
Swami: Learning means Atmajnana; it is not the knowledge of
thing related to the world, which trains for a living, and is
useful as basis for a living. To compare Atmajnana with such
Vidyas is a great mistake. Great men are those who do not abuse
others, who search for the reality with good intentions. Spiritual
matters cannot be understood by those without the power of
discrimination, who are puffed up with the authority they have; or
by those who are unaware of any Atmajnana. So consider those whom
you described as educated and great as belonging to the brood
mentioned above and, without yielding place to such ideas and
worries, engage yourself in strengthening your belief.
Bhaktha: Many Asthikas in this
world are changing into Nasthikas on account of such people, isn't
it, Swami? Is there no weapon to put down these persons, who
without any regard for their own learning and without any effort
to know the reality, abuse the Mahapurushas?
Swami: Why? There is. "A load of rags is placed on a ragged
saddle", is the saying. The words of such persons will be listened
to only by such persons; no real Asthika will associate with them.
Even if they do, they will move far away as soon as they
understand that those stories are fictious. So, the weapon to put
down these persons is in their own hands. Haven't you heard the
story of Bhasmasura? Placing his hand on every one's head, he
reduced them to ashes; finally, placing it on his own head, he
himself was reduced to ashes! Similarly, accusing others, they
themselves will be finally accused by their own words.
Those who find fault with the Lord are of
four types:
- Persons who have no interest at all in
matters related to God.
Persons who on account of individual
spite cannot endure another's greatness.
Those who have neither personal
experience nor contact nor knowledge of anything and so merely
manufacture stories based on hearsay to which they have become
enslaved.
Persons who come with some worldly
desire, and who accuse the Lord, as an excuse for the failure
caused by their own destiny.
Only these four types of people clamour as
you say; the others will not shout or jump about like puppets.
Even if they do not have personal experience, when they hear such
stories, they will just analyse them within themselves and arrive
at conclusions, for their own satisfaction. They won't abuse
others.
It is not the correct path - to disbelieve
one's own mind and give room therein to another's words. Besides,
there is no profit in discussing with those who do not know the
reality. As a matter of fact, reality does not admit of any
discussion at all. To argue with those who do not know either but
who are in the intermediate stage is like seeing the trunk and
believing it to be the entire body, as in the story of the blind
men and the elephant.
Well. Note this! It is not good to spend
time in this type of conversation. Abuse and faultfinding are
natural and common. Knowing this, those who aspire to become true
Bhakthas should search only for bases on which to build their
Ananda. All the available time should be used for holy purposes,
it should not be wasted. You have nothing to do with the good and
the bad in others. Instead of wasting the time, it should be
utilised to discard the bad and develop the good in you.
Ask me about some Sadhana or Sandesha
which you need and seek something that is worthwhile. Hereafter do
not bring near me such stories of faultfinding indulged in by
others. You too should not take in such things.
Bhaktha: All this happened because
we too have the same human nature. But now I understand the
subject from your answers, courage and joy have entered into me,
driving away the doubt and sorrow I had. Through the talk of such
men, even the little faith, devotion and earnestness that men
have, are being reduced. That was the reason for my asking you
these questions. Otherwise, I have also nothing to do with such
topics. Pardon me, hereafter I won't talk on these lines to you.
Swami: Very good! During the little time available, if you
don't think of some good subject, but merely recollect the
ignorant prattle of others, it is as if you too joined in blaming
those persons. That is harmful to Bhakthas. Whatever others may
say, you should not give up your faith. Once you are firmly
established in that, you will not be in want any day. One word
following another produces anger and pain. Bhakthi Marga is
designed for suppressing, not developing these qualities.
You tell me that devotion and faith
disappear because people listen to such accusers... but for how
long? As soon as the truth is discovered, will they be trusted
again? Will their words be valued again?
The talk of those faultfinders is as the
sound of bronze. Cheap metals make more sound; gold which does not
make sound is very valuable. True Bhakthas will be mute. They will
follow the path of silence. Their tongues will be fully engaged in
the repetition of the essential greatness of the Lord. It is best
they have no respite for any other word. So, do not permit the
words of the bronze voiced persons to enter your ears; but fill
them with the name of the Lord, which is the Pranavanada itself.
Next month, if you get any problems
regarding such useful topics as Sadhana or Anushtana, come here
and have them solved. But do not bring with you bundles of such
doubts!
Bhaktha: I am indeed blessed this
day. On account of them, You have vouchsafed to me the light of
wisdom. Seeing all this, I feel that the saying, "All is for out
good" is true. Henceforward, whatever any one may say, I will be
patient and won't take it in because "All is for our good."
Namaskaram. Allow me to take leave.
Dialogue III
Top of the page
Swami: Oh! When did you arrive? You
were not visible anywhere outside. Are you well?
Bhaktha: 'Tis two days since I
came. I see here a number of people everywhere outside. I hear the
incessant confusion of voices. Coming from my place to avoid that
confusion, I find here too crowds everywhere. Therefore, I entered
inside. There, it is fine, blissful, quiet. That is why I was in
the hall inside. It is as quiet inside as it is restless outside.
Swami: What is special in this? It is natural. Where there
is jaggery, there gather the ants - and between outside and
inside, this is the distinction! That is the characteristic. That
is how it is.
Bhaktha: Swami! I do not understand
what you say. If you tell me in detail, I shall listen and be
happy.
Swami: You yourself said, didn't you, that there is an
outside and an inside. Well. Those are what we call
'Bahyaprapancham' and 'Antharaprapancham', the external world and
the internal world. Now, which is the internal? Give me your idea.
Bhaktha: You want it to come from
my mouth itself? It would be so good if You speak.
Swami: Well. Making the questioner himself give out the
answers is the Sanathana method of teaching. If those who
question, themselves give the answers, they would clearly
understand the subject. The lecturing style is different. In olden
days, all the Rishis enabled their disciples to understand
Vedantha only be this method. So, come on! Speak! Let us see.
Bhaktha: Do you ask me to speak of
the objects I have seen with the eye?
Swami: Not only the eye. Tell me all that you have
experienced and known through all the senses of cognition, the
eye, the ear... etc.
Bhaktha: Earth, sky, water, sun,
moon, wind, fire, stars, dusk, mountains, hills, trees, rivers,
women, men, children, old persons, animals, birds, coldness, heat,
the happy, the miserable, fishes, insects, disease... like these I
have seen many.
Swami: Enough, enough, that's enough! This is the
'Prapancha' ...Did you see it only today? Did it exist yesterday?
Will it exist tomorrow?
Bhaktha: Why do you ask me so,
Swami? It has existed like this for ages isn't it? Who knows for
how long it will exist, or since how long it has existed?
Swami: 'Since how long it has existed!', you said isn't it?
That is what we spoke of as 'Anadi', beginningless. This external
world is beginningless... When there is 'external', there must be
'internal' also, is it not? ...Well, have you ever seen a cinema?
Bhaktha: Ever seen! Why, Swami, the
cinema too is a part of the Prapancham, isn't it? I have seen
many.
Swami: What did you see? Tell me.
Bhaktha: I have seen many wonderful
'pictures'; I have heard numerous experiences of joy and sorrow.
Swami: 'I have seen', you say. The screen is one; the
'picture' is another. Did you see both?
Bhaktha: Yes.
Swami: Did you see the screen and the 'picture' both at the
same time?
Bhaktha: How is that possible,
Swami? When the pictures are seen, the screen is not visible; when
the screen is visible the pictures are not seen.
Swami: Right! The screen, the pictures, do they exist
always?
Bhaktha: No. The screen is
permanent; the pictures come and go.
Swami: As you say, the screen is permanent and the pictures
come and go. For this 'permanent', and 'impermanent' we use the
words, Sthiram and Asthiram, Nithyam and Anithyam, Ksharam and
Aksharam. I shall ask on another Anithyam. I shall ask on another
subject: Does the picture fall on the screen or the screen fall on
the picture? Which is the basis for what?
Bhaktha: The pictures fall on the
screen; so, for the picture, the screen is the basis.
Swami: So, too, the external world which is like the
picture has no permanence; it changes. The internal world is
fixed; it does not change. The external has the internal as its
basis, its substratum.
Bhaktha: But, Swami! I heard you
say Ksharam Aksharam, Nithyam Anithyam.
Swami: Yes, my boy! You were speaking now of pictures, do
these have names and forms?
Bhaktha: Haven't they? 'Tis only
because they have names and forms that the story is understood.
Then only do we recollect Ramayana and Bharatham. There is no
formless name and nameless form.
Swami: Good! That is well said! Where there is form, there
must be name' where there is name, there must be form. Both these
are connected with each other. When we say, "Avinaabhaava
Sambandha", it is to this relationship that we refer. Have you
understood now the meaning of 'Prapancham'?
Bhaktha: I have grasped that it is
identified with name and form, but... Swami, ...I would like to
hear you describe how it originated.
Swami: You should not fall into the tangle now. If we
engage ourselves in describing that, it would be like getting into
a mango garden and without eating the fruit we have plucked,
calculating the number of trees in the garden, the number of twigs
on each branch, the number of fruits on each twig, and what the
total price of all the mangoes would be if the price of one mango
is so much. Instead of senselessly wasting precious time in the
collection of this information, we should, like the person who
eats the fruit, find out what is of primary importance; and
understanding that thing first, attain contentment and joy. Leave
that alone. What did you say is the nature of this Prapancham?
This Prapancham has another name too, do you know?
Bhaktha: I said the Prapancham is
identified with name and form. I have heard that it is known by
another name, Jagath.
Swami: This Nama-Roopa Prapancham, this Jagath is like
Indrajala or magician's art, real only as long as you see it. So
too the world is real only so long as you experience with your
Indriyas or senses. That is to say, anything not experienced in
the wakeful stage is taken as nonexistent. Under such
circumstances, we say 'Sath' for existence and 'Asath' for
nonexistence. Therefore, what do you say of this world? Is it
'Sath' or 'Asath'?
Bhaktha: It exists in experience in
the wakeful stage, and so it is 'Sath'; it does not exist in the
deep sleep stage and so it is 'Asath'.
Swami: Oh, Sath, Asath, did you say? When these two words
are added, we get Sadasath, isn't it? This is what is spoken of by
us as Maya, do you know?
Bhaktha: Is that Maya similar to
magic?
Swami: Is it not? 'Indrajalam idam Sarvam'; all this is the
magician's work. That is what the Rishis have been saying since
ages.
Bhaktha: Then, there must be a
performer of all this Indrajala, isn't it?
Swami: Certainly, there is. That magician is God. He is
endowed with countless auspicious attributes. The Maharshis have
formed a name on the basis of each attribute and a form on the
basis of each name and attained realisation meditating on those
forms, making the attributeless attributeful and the formless
formful? Is it not their experience that is being proclaimed
through a thousand tongues? In the Sastras, Vedas and the
Upanishads have they not declared how they have realised God in
their Dhyana Samadhi, each in his own way, according to his
attitude and devotion and worship; how each has been blessed with
the vision of the Lord and the actual consummation of union with
him?
Bhaktha: Yes, Swami! I have
understood that. But you said that name and form are based on
attributes. Kindly explain this to me.
Swami: Certainly. We must now pay attention to such
important topics only because the others are beyond your powers of
imagination. Listen carefully. Since the Lord pleases all, He is
known as Rama. So also He is Premaswarupa, the embodiment of love;
He is Bhaktavatsala, full of affection to His devotees; He is
Krupasagara, ocean of mercy. In each such name and form, He has
vouchsafed Sakshatkara to Bhakthas and blessed them with Sayujya.
The formless God assumes all forms in order to bless Bhakthas.
Bhaktha: I am happy. I am indeed so
happy, Swami! Through Your grace, I am understanding quite
clearly. Just one doubt: The formless Paramathma, you said, has
countless names. Are all names and forms equal? Is there any
difference?
Swami: What a question! All names and forms are certainly
equal. Whatever name and form are worshipped, the Lord is of that
unique real Swarupa only. It is possible to realise Him through
that name and form. But, the Bhaktha should pay attention to one
matter. In whichever form the Lord is worshipped, the favour
prayed for the purpose must be one.
Bhaktha: What type of purpose,
Swami?
Swami: Mumukshuthwam. Desire for Liberation. The Lord alone
should be loved, nothing else. Love that. Meditate on that. That
should be concretised. Finally, resolve that you be merged in
that. That type of acute desire alone one should have.
Bhaktha: True, Swami! I have
understood well. As you said, I have heard many stories from the
Bhagavatha and the Ramayana of people who asked the Lord all kinds
of favours and brought about their own ruin. Hiranyaksha, Ravan
and Bhasmasura and others are remembered for their ways from that
day to this. You have said it clearly. It is something which
Bhakthas should carefully consider.
Swami: Well! There is no use simply nodding the head for
everything, relishing them as 'true', 'true'. If it is firmly
fixed in your heart that this is true is true and this is good,
thereafter it is necessary to put it not practice. If you say that
it is true so long as I speak and forget when you go away, this
listening itself is useless. The food that is eaten is to remove
hunger, not for being kept on the tongue, away from the stomach.
Then hunger will start again. So also, hearing and not acting
accordingly, is useless.
Bhaktha: So far, you have told some
important things, (1) The External World, (2) The Internal World,
(3) Bhagavan, the Lord. Are these then separate entities, like
cause and effect? Or are they connected one with the other?
Swami: Think about it yourself! For this I have already
sent the reply in 'Prema Vahini'. It must have reached you today
itself. Look into that. Look closely at what is said there of the
relationship between 'He that serves', 'He that is served', and
'the wherewithal of service'.
Bhaktha: Swami, You said also
Ksharam, Aksharam, Nithyam, Anithyam. Are there any other names
too?
Swami: These two are known as Purusha, also. They are said
to be Chethana and Achethana. They are referred to as Jiva and
Jada also. The Kshara Akshara Purushas are named in another
context as Para and Apara-prakritis. If you contemplate with a
clear intelligence you will find that only names change; the thing
does not change.
Bhaktha: Then, Swami, just as
Kshara Akshara have as synonym Purushas, has Bhagavantha, the
Lord, and such synonym?
Swami: Why? Bhagavan is well known by the very appropriate
name, Purushothama, since He is the highest of the Purushas.
Bhaktha: Oh! How sweet! What a
sweet name! Did the Purushas originate from the Purushothama?
Swami: Here comes the big problem. Once before also you
asked, did it 'originate'? We must use correct words. Otherwise,
we get wrong meanings. We should not say, 'originating' from
Purushothama. In Him they shine. I told you before that these
Purushas are indicated by the words, Para-Apara Prakriti,
Jiva-Jada. This word Prakriti gives the sense of Swabhava and
Sakti, isn't it?
Bhaktha: It does. I understand
Purushothama is one, His Prakriti is the second.
Swami: No. You are mistaken. Think again. Is there any
difference between a thing and its nature? Is it possible to
separate and see the nature apart from the thing? Still, you said
'two'.
Bhaktha: 'Tis a mistake, Swami. It
is wrong. No one can separate them. The two are one.
Swami: In current speech we say; sugar is sweet, the sun
gives light, it is hot etc. Sweetness is in sugar, light is in the
sun. They are not separate; they are one. Sweetness cannot be
known unless sugar is placed on the tongue; without seeing the
sun, light and heat cannot be known. Thus, Bhagavan has two
characteristics; when we speak of them as two, they are referred
to a Purusha and Prakriti; but they are really one. Prakriti in
the Bhagavan (this is what is known by the name Mahamaya) is
unmanifested and inseparable, like sweetness in sugar.
Avinabhaavasambandham means just this relationship. By mere
willing, this Maya envelopes Bhagavan and manifests in the form of
cosmos or Brahmanda. This is what is called Samashti-Viswarupa, or
absolute-full-world-form. It is this absolute that expresses
itself as Jagath, through the power of Avidya according to the
divine will.
Bhaktha: What is this, Swami? It
was all so clear so far, but this word Avidya newly used has upset
my train of thought! I didn't understand anything. Please explain.
Swami: Don't be in a hurry! Have you heard the word, Vidya?
Do you know its meaning?
Bhaktha: Certainly. Vidya means
study!
Swami: Vidya means knowledge, Jnana. When 'A' is added, it
becomes Ajnana, ignorance. Though one, ignorance takes
multifarious forms.
Bhaktha: Yes, Swami. How did this
Avidya come about? Where did it come from?
Swami: You know, don't you, of light and darkness. Do they
both exist at the same time?
Bhaktha: There can be no darkness
when there is light nor light when there is darkness.
Swami: When there is light, where does darkness exist? When
there is darkness, where does light exist? Think well.
Bhaktha: This subject is very
difficult, Swami! Still, I shall reply as well as I can. Pardon me
if I am wrong. Darkness must be in light; light must be in
darkness; how else can it be?
Swami: I will ask another small question. Answer, me. This
light and this darkness; are they independent, or are they
dependent on anything else?
Bhaktha: They are dependent on the
sun. When the sun rises, it is light; when the sun sets, it is
darkness.
Swami: Well, my boy, Vidya and Avidya are dependent on
Bhagavan. Vidya has another name, 'Chith'. I shall describe to you
all that, if you come next month. This is enough for today. Go and
come. If all is eaten at the same time, it won't be digested. It
would lead to bad health. What we have heard, what we have eaten,
requires time to get digested and assimilated. That is why I have
given a month's interval. If within that time all this is fully
digested and practised, I shall tell you the rest gladly.
Otherwise, you can imagine what that day would be like.
Bhaktha: Namaskaram. I am indeed
blessed. To digest what is heard, and what is eaten - the power to
do this should be vouchsafed by You alone. When everything is the
Lord's, how can this alone be ours? But, I shall use the power and
knowledge. You have endowed me with, as much as possible, without
any waste. Beyond that, it is all my destiny and Your grace. I
shall take leave with your permission.
Swami: Placing your burden on destiny and keeping quiet
means diminution of effort. With effort and prayer, destiny can be
attained. Without effort and prayer, destiny and grace are not
gained. Start the effort! Well, my boy, go and come gladly again.
Dialogue IV
Top of the page
Swami: Oh! You have come! I was watching
for long whether you have come or not. I knew you are a person who
comes punctually. Glad to see you.
Bhaktha: Whatever else I may disregard,
will I disregard Your command, Swami? In fact, I am eagerly
looking forward to the sixteenth of every month to meet you. What
greater happiness can I get? What better food can I take?
Swami: Very good! Such Sraddha and Bhakthi are great helps in
man's true path. Better than losing sleep and rejecting food in
the fruitless pursuit of evanescent worldly pursuits, how much
more joyful it is to attain the true, the meaningful and the holy
goal! Leave that aside now. What do you want now? Speak, let me
see.
Bhaktha: Swami, last month You said
something about 'Chith' and You were pleased to say that You will
explain more about it this month. Since then, I have been counting
the passing days in order that I may know about if from You. The
day has come at last. Please tell me about it.
Swami: Have you understood what has been told so far?
Understanding does not mean mugging up! By practice and
experience, have you realised in thought, word and deed, and with
full equanimity, the true nature of the world, that the world is
unreal?
Bhaktha: It is only be understanding that,
isn't it, Swami, that one can ever be immersed in thoughts of Sai,
the Lord, giving up all other activities and duties? Had I not
understood that much, I would have wasted this precious time.
Swami: Good, my dear boy! How sad will the ryot be, if the seeds
he has planted do not sprout and yield harvest! So too, if the
seeds of true wisdom that I sow do not come up as good saplings
and give good harvest, I too am affected. On the other hand, if
they grow well and fructify into a harvest of Ananda, how happy I
would be; that is My food. This is the Seva you should do to me.
There is nothing higher than this. Without flinging away the good
words and true, spoken for your sake. If you practise them and
derive joy therefrom, the essence of that joy is my food. If you
thus act according to My words and put them into practice, I will
gladly tell you more, whatever may be the number of things you
ask. When what is said is allowed to deteriorate without being put
to use, if people come and ask me to speak and speak again, what
is to be said? If all start practising, as you are doing, the
world will not have any troubles; untruth will not manifest
itself.
Bhaktha: Swami! To practise the divine
words too, the Lord's grace is the basic need, just as for
everything else. Without that, nothing can happen. It is
ever-present, as You said. Just as the sun is hidden by fog, grace
can be obstructed by the darkness of 'I' and 'mine'. But these can
be overcome by practice and discipline. That is why if we
understand well the meaning of what we hear and follow, it is so
easy. This is my experience; I do not know of others.
Swami: True, true. What you say is correct. You have understood it
well. Without grasping the meaning, if various interpretations are
given, that distorts reality. And if a wrong sense is imputed, it
falsifies reality. But, if it is clearly understood, practice
becomes easy. Now consider this. Are all born at the same time? Do
all die at the same time? Similarly, the highest wisdom will dawn,
in this person or that, at different times. If you go on singing,
song after song, you learn music. So also, if I speak and continue
speaking, all will understand the reality. It is not my mission to
keep silent because people are not understanding. To such, it must
be communicated once, twice and more times if necessary.
Bhaktha: Swami, we are like lumps of iron;
the Lord is like the magnet. Both are related to each other. But
if that lump of iron has to be changed into an article of use in
God's hands, it has to be heated in the fire to anxiety and beaten
by the hammer of pain, so that it may obey and respond. So, in
order to shape lumps of iron like us into instruments, You have to
take much trouble. You have said that this is Your mission. Now
please tell me about the 'Chith' which You mentioned last month.
Swami: Yes. 'Chith' has also another name, 'Suddha Sathwa'; i.e.,
pure consciousness. It is as opposed to the impure consciousness
as Vidya is to Avidya. Impure consciousness is inherent in the
pure, as much as darkness is inherent in light. Since many words
are spoken, don't get confused my dear boy! Vidya-Avidya,
Jnana-Ajnana, Suddha Sathwa-Malina Sathwa, all indicate the same
idea, not different ones. I shall ask you another question. Have
you heard the word, the opposite of 'Prakriti'?
Bhaktha: I have heard the word, Swami.
When I studied grammar I learnt that the opposite of Prakriti is
'Vikriti'.
Swami: What does Vikriti mean?
Bhaktha: Vikriti means, Vikaaram, changed,
transformed, ...derived. Agni is the original; Aggi is that
derived word. So, too, Jama is derived from Yama, Janna from
Yajna, and so on.
Swami: So also, the Lord's Prakriti is known as Vidya, and its
derived or lower form or Vikriti is known as Avidya. For Vidya or
Suddha Sathwa, Avidya or Malina Sathwa is the lower form.
Bhaktha: How is that, Swami? Vidya is
effulgent in the Lord and Avidya is apparent only because of
Vidya. That is to say, the universal cosmic principle is in the
Lord, and this universal principle itself appears as individual
different from individual (by the external characteristics of name
and form, the appearance of individuals is caused). This
Avidyasakti or the power of ignorance also manifests as an
inseparably entity. For, the Lord is the only existence.
Therefore, that one existence is the basis or foundation for the
universal and the particular, the totality as well as the apparent
parts. This is Your meaning, isn't it, Swami?
Swami: That is why the Lord is referred to as Sathya and Brahmam.
This Sathyam is Akhanda or indivisible. It is Adwaitha, non-dual.
It is Anantha, without end. In the Upanishads, this Sathya
(associated with the unmanifested Maya Sakthi) is called the
Purna, 'Adah' and the Sathya (associated with the unmanifested
Maya Sakthi) is called the Purna, 'Idam'. This is the secret of
the Upanishadic Manthra, Purnamadah Purnamidam...
Bhaktha: Oh, what fine teaching! Just like
giving unto the hand a fruit peeled and ready to eat! This
manifested total cosmos or Purna arose out of the Purna of
unmanifested indivisible reality, this is what you spoke of, is it
not?
Swami: It is on account of this that we say "Vasudevassarvamidam,
Sarvamkhalvidam Brahma etc." The words Vasudeva, Brahma are
different, but there is no difference in meaning at all. Did you
understand?
Bhaktha: It is all like nectar, Swami. But
so far you have not told me, who I am?
Swami: This is enough now. Next month I shall solve your doubts,
with illustrative examples. Grasp well what has been told.
Practise; don't forget and lay aside. Meditate on it. Well, you
can take leave now.
Dialogue V
Top of the page
Swami: Well, my boy, I am glad you have
come. Are you reflecting the answers I gave last time and
practising what has been told with firm conviction? Are you
deriving Ananda therefrom?
Bhaktha: Swami, will any Bhaktha like me
allow your words, nectar-like words, to go to waste? No one
aspiring to attain real Ananda will throw away the ambrosial words
that you confer in Your grace. I do not know about others but I am
reflecting upon your answers night and day and practising them
with courage and conviction. I am awake all the time waiting for
the next chance to meet you.
Swami: It is this alertness that devotees should cultivate. To
attach oneself to the flimsy, paltry foolishness of the world and
to run after them and worry when they slip out of the hands or
jump about in glee when you get them, all this is Avidya, Maya.
But your counting of days, waiting for the chance, keeping awake
for the opportunity of hearing the words of the Lord and imbibing
their essence, that is Vidya Maya. If Bhakthas fall into this
Maya, they will attain fulfilment, without fail, some day or
other. So, since this Vidya Maya has illumined you, you are
fortunate. Develop this, that is to say, this dwelling on the
thoughts of God; don't give it up or reduce it for any reason, to
any extent. You will become holy without fail. You will reach
fulfilment and attain the goal.
Bhaktha: Swami! Last month, You said You
will explain to me who 'I' am. If I understand that also, I can be
rid of the little delusion that I have and, without the slightest
trace of doubt, meditate on You and be blissful. What grater
fortune can I have?
Swami: Well, my boy! To speak about the real nature of 'I' is very
easy; but until it is experienced, full contentment is impossible.
For me to tell you to my satisfaction and for you to grasp its
full meaning, it needs some time. This month, even the allotted
hours of the day are not enough for me! Though it is like this, I
am using all the time for the Ananda of Bhakthas only; I have
nothing of my own. Being useful for my Bhakthas, that is my
selfish purpose. Throughout last month, I went to Nellore, Gudur,
Venkatagiri and the villages around. Afterwards, I went to
Bangalore and returned. What little time was available I used for
'Premavahini'! This month, I visited Hyderabad, Rajahmundry,
Samalkot, Chebrolu, Nuzvid etc. So there is no spare time. Next
month, I shall tell you about who 'you' are to your full
satisfaction. For the present try to grasp the meaning of this
song in folk dance style; you will understand who this 'you' is,
to a large extent. It is possible you will get Vairagya to a large
extent through this. Later, you will understand the meaning of
what I have to say more clearly and with greater ease. Do not
merely read this song but think well on the meaning of each word.
The song will certainly turn your brain!
Bhaktha: All right. Give me at least that.
I shall satisfy my desire; I shall drink the nectar and digest it.
Swami: Listen, carefully.
- Thai! Thai! Thai! Thai! Thai! Dummy
see the Tamasha play of this puppet doll.
O Jiva, listen to the long, long tale
of its past, its future, behind and front!
- It rolled at first in mushy mire
of mother's womb, its prison dark.
It came with a whimper, but all around
they smiled in joy and feasts galore.
- 'O tragedy! I am born again',
it knew and wept, both loud and long.
But all the while, they caressed it
and laughed to raise a laugh!
- In its own dirt it wallowed day,
without a sense of shame;
it rose and fell, at every step,
acting daily a childish play.
- It runs and skips with gangs of chums
and learns a hundred tricks and trades;
it grows so tall and thick and broad;
from year to year, very fast and fair.
- It moves in pairs, and bills and coos
in rosy rainbow style;
it sings in tunes unheard before,
and quaffs the cup, unique and strange.
- 'Tis Brahma who makes these dolls in
pairs
and dolls and dolls in millions,
but this our puppet does not know
when it plays with dollies: Thim! Thim! Thim!
- This Maya doll like the holly bull
has the Thamas rope in nostril hole;
lust and anger are the scorpion whips
which whack the back of the slave.
- It gloats with glee, when others stop
before it shuddering low;
it doles them pain; but cannot bear
a microscopic share!
- It swears and shouts and waves its arms
and frets and fumes with blood-red eyes;
it is indeed a wondrous sight -
possessed by devil ire!
- It scans and spells, it scribbles and
swots,
it does not know the reason why,
it runs in panic trying to glean
fodder for belly, willy or nilly.
- Ah, did you see this queer little
dummy,
with so many books in its tummy,
turning and twisting in jealousy green
when a learned doll encounters it?
- And, you should hear its secret cluck
when a shameful sensual urge,
a wicked lurking greed
is satisfied in sin!
- It proudly pats; what? its own back!
For beauty, brawn, vitality.
While all the time and step by step
it moves towards senility.
- It totters and blinks through wrinkles
and folds;
and when the children cry,
'old ape', 'old ape'
it gapes and grins a toothless grin -
its bones do clatter so!
- Unto the last, it is lost in fear,
wear and tear and many a tearsome fray!
Of what avail, O dummy doll, your gasp and groan,
your needs must meet the doom.
- Aha! The bird! It shakes its wings!
It files out, brrrr, from out the cage of skin.
Empty, it tightens; vacant, it straightens;
o, drag it out of sight; it bloats and stinks.
- The elements join their parents five;
the doll's desires are dust and ash;
why weep, you fools, when one of you
falls on the crowded stage?
- Uncles, cousins, aunts and friends
march in gloom until door of room!
The Maya doll, alas, forgot its kin,
the divine name, redeemer true!
- O Jiva, do not lean upon this slender
reed;
just a sneeze! This frail skin boat
endowed with thrice three leaks
will plunge you, middle stream!
- This puppet weeps, it sleeps and wakes,
When the string is pulled by unseen hand
The Lord it is, who stands behind,
But the dummy swears, it is I, I, I.
- Dharma, Karma are the hardy strings
He tightens or He loosens.
Unaware, the puppet swaggers
criss-cross, on the planks.
- It takes the world as stable -
this silly strutting dummy!
A twinkle! He winds up the show!
Exit the pomp and pride!
- O Jiva, you have waded
through ant and snake and bird;
seek and find without delay,
the road to lasting bliss!
- Bless your luck! You now can see
Sai Krishna, He has come!
Be kin with him and you will know
your what and why and how.
- A million words so clever and nice,
can they appease your hunger's maw?
Light the lamp of the soul instead,
and, freed from bondage, run out and play.
- This song that tells of dummy doll
makes Jiva sad and wise! I know;
but, Jiva! See the Leela grand of Sathya Sai Nath
and - Know Thyself!
Bhaktha: Ah! I have understood! I have
clearly understood that 'I' am not the body, the Buddhi, the
Manas, or the Chittam. When I am not any of these, 'I' must be
only the Atma, and if 'I' am the Atma, then 'I' am the Paramatma
and so everything is Paramatma! All this I have understood!
Believing out of ignorance that 'I' am this body and this
intellect, this Deha and this Buddhi, we are experiencing all
these miseries. True, true. We are passing through all that you
said now, one after the other, as beads in a string. Oh! What a
truth? What a truth! Listening to this one song is enough; the
brain, as you said, turns into Vairagya - Swami! I felt very
disappointed when You said first that You had no time to spare.
But that was due to my ignorance. Though I knew that Our Swami
will never disappoint any one or cause trouble, I felt as if You
have conferred even more Ananda now, than what I thought I would
get. How is Your kindness to be described! They sing of you, "For
a single drop of tear, Sayi will melt"; and they say you can never
bear to see us suffer: this is proof of the truth of these. Shall
I take leave?
Swami: Very good. Go and come again. I too have no time to spare.
I have to see and send those who are going to their places.
Dialogue VI
Top of the page
Bhaktha: Namasthe, Swami.
Swami: Subhamasthu.
Bhaktha: With Your grace, everything is
Subham; without it, everything is Asubham.
Swami: Good, but have you realized how both these are based on
grace? In one, both subsist; both are conferred by the selfsame
grace. Well, let that topic stand by. Last time you got a folk
poem to digest and it must have affected your thoughts deeply.
Now, in what stage of equanimity is your brain?
Bhaktha: Ah. Everything appears a puppet
show now, Swami. But only off and on. The mind forgets and gets
caught by the fascination of the objects. What mystery is this,
Swami?
Swami: Well, the mind is associated with all kinds of activities
or Vrittis. It always follows the trail of the Vasanas, or trails
of impulses and instincts. This is its very nature.
Bhaktha: That is as much as to say we
cannot set it right. Then what is the hope? Ultimately, Swami,
have we to get immersed in Vasanas and become degraded?
Swami: There is hope, my boy! No need to get immersed and lost.
Though it is its nature, it can be changed. Charcoal has as its
nature blackening all that it gets mixed with. But you should not
take that as final. When fire enters it, the charcoal becomes red.
So too, though the mind is always wandering in the illusion of
darkness, when through the Lord's grace the fire of Jnana enters
it, its nature changes and the Sathwic nature pertaining to the
divine comes into it.
Bhaktha: Swami, they speak of something
called Anthah-karana; what is it?
Swami: The mind is referred to like that. Karana means Indriya.
Anthah-karana means internal Indriya.
Bhaktha: So, are there two types, internal
Indriyas and external Indriyas?
Swami: Yes, of course. The external Indriyas are called
Karmendriyas; the internal Indriyas are named Jnanendriyas.
Bhaktha: Swami, please tell me which are
the Karmendriyas and which the Jnanendriyas.
Swami: Well, all acts done bodily are by Karmendriyas; they are
five in number. Those which impart Jnana from inside are named
Jnanendriyas. These are: hearing, touch, sight, taste and smell.
Both these are together called Dasendriyas (the ten organs.)
Bhaktha: So, what is the work that both
these do together? What is the connection between their function
and the Manas or mind?
Swami: Well, really, whatever work they do, they can't achieve
anything without the meditation of Manas. The Karmendriyas perform
acts in the world and receive knowledge and the Jnanendriyas
discriminate the good and the bad and offer them to the Atma,
through the Manas. If there is no Mind at all, how can these
transmit? When we have to reach the other shore of a flooded
river, we rely on the medium of a boat or raft. When the
Karmendriyas and the Jnanendriyas, which are connected with
Prakrithi, desire to attain the Atma, they have to accept the help
of the boat, Manas. Otherwise, they cannot attain.
Bhaktha: If so, where do these other
things you spoke about, Buddhi, Chittam and Ahamkaram reside?
Swami: They too are in this only. The Jnanendriyas and
Karmendriyas are both together called Dasendriyas. Of these, four
are distinguished and referred to as Antah Chathushtaya, or the
internal four Indriyas. Those four are Manas, Buddhi, Chittam and
Ahamkaram.
Bhaktha: Very nice. That is to say, all
are in the same thing. Life is indeed funny. But Swami, what is
the function of these four?
Swami: Manas grasps the object; Buddhi examines arguments for and
against; Chittam understands the object by means of these;
Ahamkaram changes the decision for or against and by attachment,
slackens the hold of Jnana. These are the things they do.
Bhaktha: Excuse me, Swami, I am asking
only to know; where do these exist in the body?
Swami: I am glad; don't worry. Manas is in the cupola, Buddhi in
the tongue, Chittam in the navel and Ahamkaram in the heart.
Bhaktha: Excellent. So, Buddhi and
Ahamkaram are in the most important places! These are the chief
causes of all the world's miseries. Then, if we examine it with
reference to Your words, it looks as if there will be no misery
when these two places are made pure!
Swami: You have indeed listened to me attentively. Yes, that is
right. First, if words are used in a clean and pure manner, that
is proof of Buddhi treading the right path. When Ahamkaram is
suppressed and conquered, that is proof of the heart being pure.
Therefore, be very careful as regards these two. Then, even your
Manas and Chittam will come to have good Vrittis. Then only will
you be free from pain and misery. They can happen to you then.
Bhaktha: So, among all these, who is the
'I'? Who is the experiencer of all this?
Swami: We have arrived at the right point. 'You' are none among
all these! All these exist only so long as the feeling, 'This body
is mine' exists. They are all associated with some activities or
Vrittis. The Atma which observes all these Vrittis, that is 'You'.
The joy and sorrow, the loss and misery, the good and bad of these
activities are all related to the body only and so, they are not
yours; they will not be yours. You are the Atma. Until this truth
is realized, you sleep the sleep of 'I' and 'mine'. In that sleep,
dreams appear of loss, misery, sorrow and joy. The dreams persist
only until you awake and after you wake up, the fear you had while
dreaming the sorrow you experienced, all disappear and are no
longer true. Similarly, when delusion is thrown off and you
'awaken ' in Jnana, you will understand that all this is not
'you'; that you are the Atma.
Bhaktha: Then, Swami, for whose sake do
these, the Manas, Buddhi, Chittam, and Ahamkaram, do all this
work?
Swami: For no one's sake! They are engaged in their own work! The
Atma observes everything and its shadow the Jiva, which is deluded
by the association of the body-consciousness, plays this drama,
through all these acts.
Dialogue VII
Top of the page
Bhaktha: Greetings, Swami.
Swami: Oh, you have come, is it? You didn't come for Dasara!
Bhaktha: The number of Bhakthas then would
be large I thought and so I was afraid I will not be able to speak
to you to my heart's content; hence, I came now, a few days prior
to Your birthday, so that with Your blessings I could realise the
ideal which You teach and have both Bhakthi and Jnana born in my
heart, on the auspicious day of the celebration of Your advent.
Swami: Good! Very good intention, indeed! But do you mean to say
that Bhakthi and Jnana will not be born in you on days other than
my birthday? Is that your idea?
Bhaktha: No, no! That is not so! You come
to this world on an auspicious day at a holy moment which an
auspicious form, isn't it? My idea is that at least on such a day
I could establish in my heart Your holy words and make it pure.
The day is holy and the moment auspicious.
Swami: Fine! What is the Sandeha, the doubt, you have today?
Bhaktha: I have come today determined to
hear and put into practice Your holy words, Swami. As the saying
goes, "Even if you go to Kasi, you have Saneeswara by your side!"
So I did not bring the demon of doubt with me today when I came.
Nor did that demon accompany me! It is all due to Your grace.
Swami: Very good! Understand that when these doubts do not come of
themselves, nor are entertained by you, then indeed the mind is
pure. When these two happen, it can be called one-pointedness.
When you have none, why should I remind you of doubts? Then tell
me, what shall I speak to you about?
Bhaktha: Swami, tell me how we should,
generally, conduct ourselves. What are the qualities we should
possess? Which type of subject should we try to understand? To
receive the divine grace and attain Your holy presence, what acts
should we perform? Please tell me the more important of these, the
essential things, the chosen jewels.
Swami: Oh! It seem, Parvathi asked Iswara once, "It is difficult
to retain in memory the Sahasranama, the thousand names of God; it
takes a long time to learn them and repeat them; so, please tell
me one single name which is the essence of all the thousand".
Similarly, you too perhaps find it difficult to grasp all that I
write and explain and so you are also asking me to tell you about
the most important, is it? But you see, names have their essence,
the subjects you ask about are different. Though their objective
and final result are one, the practices, the paths of activity,
cannot be one. They cannot all be summarised in one word! Still, I
am giving you now some selected jewels, maxims of conduct, that
are very important. Collect and treasure them well. Experience
them well, put them into practice and derive joy therefrom. Wear
these jewels and beautify yourself.
Bhaktha: Exactly what I wanted! How lucky
I am!
Swami: Then listen carefully, I shall tell you.
- Prema, love, should be considered as
the very breath of life.
- The love that is manifest in all things
equally, believe that the same Prema is Paramathma.
- The one Paramathma is in every one, in
the form of Prema.
- More than all other forms of Prema,
man's first effort should be to fix
his love on the Lord.
- Such love directed towards God is
Bhakthi; that is the fundamental test, the acquisition of
Bhakthi.
- Those who seek the bliss of the Atma
should not run after the joys of sense objects.
- Sathya, truth, must be treated as
life-giving as breathing itself.
- Just as a body that has no breath is
useless and begins to rot and stink within a few minutes,
similarly, life without truth is useless and becomes the
stinking abode of strife and grief.
- Believe that there is nothing greater
than truth, nothing more precious, nothing sweeter and nothing
more lasting.
- Truth is the all-protecting God. There
is no mightier guardian than truth.
- The Lord who is Sathyaswarupa grants
His Darsan to those of truthful speech and loving heart.
- Have undiminished kindness towards all
beings and also the spirit of self-sacrifice.
- You must also possess control of the
senses, an unruffled character and non-attachment.
- Be always on the alert against the four
sins, which the tongue is prone to commit:
- Speaking falsehood
- Speaking ill of others
- Backbiting and
- Talking too much.
It is best to attempt to control these
tendencies.
- Try to prevent the five sins that the
body commits: Killing, adultery, theft, drinking intoxicants and
the eating of flesh. It is a great help for the highest life if
these also are kept as far away as possible.
- One must be always vigilant, without a
moment's carelessness, against the eight sins that the mind
perpetrates: Kamam or craving; Krodham or anger; Lobham or
greed; Moham or attachment; impatience; hatred, egoism, pride.
Man's primary duty is to keep all these things at a safe
distance from himself.
- Man's mind speeds fast, pursuing wrong
actions. Without letting it hurry like that, remember the name
of the Lord at that time or attempt to do some good deed or
other. Those who do thus will certainly become fit for the
Lord's grace.
- First give up the evil tendency to feel
envious at the prosperity of others and the desire to harm them.
Be happy that others are happy. Sympathise with those who are in
adversity and wish for their prosperity. That is the means of
cultivating love for God.
- Patience is all the strength than man
needs.
- Those anxious to live in joy must
always be doing good.
- It is easy to conquer anger through
love, attachment through reasoning, falsehood through truth, bad
through good and greed through charity.
- No reply should be given to the words
of the wicked. Be at a great distance from them; that is for
your good. Break off all relations with such people.
- Seek the company of good men, even at
the sacrifice of your honour and life. But be praying to God to
bless you with the discrimination needed to distinguish between
the good men and the bad. You must also endeavour, with the
intellect given to you.
- Those who conquer states and earn fame
in the world are hailed as heroes, no doubt; but those who have
conquered the senses are heroes who must be acclaimed as the
conquerors of the universal.
- Whatever acts a good or bad man may do,
the fruits thereof follow him and will never stop pursuing him.
- Greed yields only sorrow; contentment
is best. There is no happiness greater than contentment.
- The mischief-mongering tendency should
be plucked out by the roots and thrown off. If allowed to exist,
it will undermine life itself.
- Bear with fortitude both loss and
grief; try and search for plans to achieve joy and gain.
- When you are invaded by anger, practise
silence or remember the name of the Lord. Do not remind yourself
of things which will inflame the anger more. That will do
incalculable harm.
- From this moment, avoid all bad habits.
Do not delay or postpone. They do not contribute the slightest
joy.
- Try as far as possible within your
means to satisfy the needs of the poor, who are really
Daridranarayana. Share with them whatever food you have and make
them happy at least that moment.
- Whatever you feel should not be done to
you by others, avoid doing such things to others.
- For faults and sins committed in
ignorance, repent sincerely; try not to repeat the faults and
sins again; pray to God to bless you with the strength and the
courage needed to stick to the right path.
- Do not allow anything to come near you,
which will destroy your eagerness and enthusiasm for God. Want
of eagerness will cause the decay of the strength of man.
- Yield not to cowardice; do not give up
Ananda.
- Do not get welled up when people praise
you; do not feel dejected when people blame you.
- If among your friends any one hates
another and starts a quarrel, do not attempt to inflame them
more and make them hate each other more; try, on the other hand,
with love and sympathy to restore their former friendship.
- Instead of searching for others'
faults, search for your own faults yourself; uproot them, throw
them off. It is enough if you search and discover one fault of
yours; that is better that discovering tens of hundreds of
faults in others.
- Even if you cannot or will not do any
Punya or good deed, do not conceive or carry out any Papa, or
bad deed.
- Whatever people may say about the
faults that you know are not in you, do not feel for it; as for
the faults that are in you, try to correct them yourself, even
before others point them out to you. Do not harbour anger or
bitterness against persons who point out your faults; do not
retort, pointing out the faults of those persons themselves, but
show your gratitude to them. Trying to discover their faults is
a greater mistake on you part. It is good for you to know your
faults; it is no good your knowing others' faults.
- Whenever you get a little leisure, do
not spend it in talking about all and sundry, but utilise it in
meditating on God or in doing service to others.
- The Lord is understood only by the
Bhaktha; the Bhaktha is understood only by the Lord. Others
cannot understand them. So, do not discuss matters relating to
the Lord with those who have no Bhakthi. On account of such
discussion, your devotion will diminish.
- If anyone speaks to you on any subject,
having understood it wrongly, do not think of other wrong
notions which will support that stand but grasp only the good
and the sweet, in what he says. True meaning is to be
appreciated as desirable, not wrong meaning or many meanings,
which give no meaning at all and cause only the hampering of
Ananda.
- If you desire to cultivate
one-pointedness, do not, when in a crowd or bazaar, scatter your
vision to the four corners and on everything, but see only the
road in front of you, just enough to avoid accidents to
yourself. One-pointedness will become firmer if one moves about
without taking one's attention off the road, avoiding dangers,
and not casting eyes on others' forms.
- Give up all doubts regarding the Guru
and God. If your worldly desires do not get fulfilled, do not
blame it on your devotion; there is no relationship between such
desires and devotion to God. These worldly desires have to be
given up some day or other; Bhakthi feelings have to be acquired
some day or other. Be firmly convinced of this.
- If your Dhyanam or Japam does not
progress properly or if the desires you have entertained do not
come to fruition, do not get dispirited with God. It will
dispirit you even more and you will lose the peace, however
small or big, that you might have earned. During Dhyanam and
Japam you should not be dispirited, desperate or discouraged.
When such feelings come, take it that it is the fault of your
Sadhana and endeavour to do them correctly.
It is only when in your daily conduct and
in all actions you automatically behave and act in this manner and
along these lines that you can attain the divine principle very
easily. Therefore, hold on to these maxims firmly. Chew and digest
these spoken sweets distributed on the birthday festival of your
Swami and be happy! Have you understood?
Bhaktha: Your words are like Amritha,
Swami. Yes! Amritha! In all these ordinary dealings of life, man
does not know the road; he follows the wrong track; there are no
books also to tell him the means of a happy journey; for all such
strugglers like me, what you have said is Prana, the very breath!
We are indeed blessed! Bless me, that these words get imprinted on
my heart and are realised in practice, every day. There is no good
in simply listening or reading them. It is only when Your grace
accompanies them that we get strength. I shall take leave, Swami!
Swami: All right! Go and come for the birthday festival. There are
just seven days more, isn't it? Today is 16th; the birthday is on
23rd; so there are seven days left. Till that time let this
sweetness fill and overflow your heart!
Dialogue VIII
Top of the page
Swami: Oh! How is this? You have come so
early this time?
Bhaktha: You made me come, and so I have
come! Is there anything I can call mine?
Swami: That is true, but will even a scrap of paper move without
some cause? So too, for you to come so early, there must be some
reason.
Bhaktha: Nothing else, Swami! Hearing that
you are proceeding to Trivandrum on the 16th itself, at the
invitation of Sri Ramakrishna Rao, the Governor of Kerala, I felt
that I may not get much chance to speak to you if I come on that
day only. So, I came now, excuse me!
Swami: That is well done! But why do you ask that I should pardon
you? Really speaking, one should not ask for pardon, even when one
commits wrong! Then, what is the fun of asking for it, when you
have done the right thing?
Bhaktha: Why, Swami? Why should we not ask
for pardon, when we commit wrong?
Swami: No, you must not ask, either for pardon when wrong is done,
or for reward, when right is done! Doing right is but man's duty;
it is its own reward. What other reward can there be? The joy of
having done one's duty is your reward! Doing wrong is against the
duty of man. So, one should pray repentingly, for the intelligence
and discrimination necessary for not repeating the wrong already
committed. Beyond this, it depends on His grace, whether He
punishes and protects or pardons and corrects.
Bhaktha: That is very fine. Henceforward,
I shall do so, Swami.
Swami: Let that be. Are you treasuring the gems given on the
birthday and making good use of them?
Bhaktha: As far as possible! With my
maximum effort, using the quality of Buddhi granted by You, I am
putting them into action.
Swami: What do you mean by 'as far as possible'? For Bhakthas like
you, what other task is there greater than this? Why is it not
possible? You only need faith and the will. Then it should not be
difficult at all to carry out the duty.
Bhaktha: Swami, You have Yourself said
that even when there is faith and even when one has the will,
putting things into practice may be difficult for want of
favourable circumstances and also because the meaning of things
may not be grasped clearly.
Swami: Oh! That means that both these, want of favourable
circumstances and want of understanding, are bothering you! Well,
if you have not understood, ask; and if you have no favourable
atmosphere, tell me what is the obstacle?
Bhaktha: Doubt is the biggest obstacle;
what can be bigger than that? Even after hearing so much, the
demon catches hold of me off and on. I do not know why.
Swami: The first reason for that: your not having faith in
yourself, born out of the conviction that you are really
Atmaswarupa. The second reason: taking the divinity in humanity as
humanity only and getting lost in the pursuit of sense enjoyment.
These demons pounce on you for just these two reasons only.
Instead, if you establish yourself in God, understanding the
divinity in man as divinity itself, this demon of doubt will not
attack you. You simply must give up this Adhyasa which makes you
mix things up.
Bhaktha: There! You use now and then
un-understandable words! That makes me even more confused, Swami!
Swami: I will never tell you un-understandable words. You have no
power to understand; so you feel worried. I use them, really, in
order to make you understand their meaning! Now, in what I told
you, which is the difficult word?
Bhaktha: You used the word, Adhyasa. What
does it mean, Swami?
Swami: What? You do not know the meaning of that! "Seeing one form
and taking it to be another, superimposing one thing upon
another".
Bhaktha: How is that? On which object do
we superimpose another? Tell me.
Swami: Well, seeing a rope and imagining it to be a snake: seeing
waves of hot air in the sun and imagining them to be horses;
seeing a mirror shining in the sun and taking it to be a lamp...
Bhaktha: But what is it that I see and
what do I take it to be?
Swami: You see Paramathma in this form of Prakriti, and take it to
be mere Prapancha, or the world, and you are afraid. It is on
account of this delusion that you have become the victim of all
these varieties of weakness and you are declining through doubt
and illusion. If you see it right, the delusion will vanish; the
fear will disappear; the faith that it is Paramathma will be
firmly and boldly established in you. To get that firmness, the
lamp of Viveka is necessary. How much a man suffers, so long as he
sees the rope as a snake! How much is the fear! The delusion! Can
it be realised how all that vanished as soon as it was seen in the
light? Similarly, these doubts and delusions too will vanish
unawares, as soon as you know that Prakriti is Paramathma.
Imposing a delusion on a delusion, imagining one object to be
another, this is called Adhyasa, my boy!
Bhaktha: But, Swami, how can Prakriti be
said to be Paramathma? When you ask me to discern this world,
which appears as Prapancha to the eye, as Paramathma, doubt is
sure to arise.
Swami: That is true. Still, if the reality is reasoned out, even
what you now see will appear as Paramathma. Cloth cannot be formed
without yarn, isn't it? Yarn is essential for cloth. In fact, it
is all yarn. In spite of this, yarn is not spoken of as cloth, nor
is cloth called yarn. This is exactly the relationship between
Prakriti and Paramathma. Paramathma is the yarn of which the
cloth, Prakriti, is formed. Has the yarn and the cloth become
separate? No. The yarn is used in one way, the cloth in another
way. But for this reason only it would be wrong to consider yarn
and cloth as different.
Bhaktha: Yes, Swami. Since Prakriti is
formed of Paramathma, it is clear that they are not separate. Now,
if both these are the same, which among these is Jiva?
Swami: That is exactly the doubt that is tormenting you, my boy.
The Jiva is the 'I' consciousness! The Jiva is associated with the
limitations of body and the senses. But He is the Atma, Jivatma,
Prathyagatma, Chidatma, doer, enjoyer, everything.
Bhaktha: Again another word. Jada is used
to mean inert matter etc. What is it, this Jada? How does it
operate? Tell me.
Swami: From Buddhi to body, all transformations of Prakriti are
Jada. This is the unreal, the unconscious, the Asath, the
Achethana. You must take everything that is not Sat and Chit as
Jada. In essence the world is really Jada and nothing else. But
Jada is inseparable from Chaithanya, or Chit and Sat, just as air
is inseparable from the atmosphere. Why, it has been said in the
Gita in the past, that all movable and immovable creation is due
to the union of Prakriti and Purusha, don't you know?
Bhaktha: Then what is the relationship
between Buddhi and Manas on the one hand and Atma on the other?
Swami: Well, really, there is no special relationship between them
and the Atma; Atma is pure and without blemish; Buddhi too is pure
and without blemish. And, just as the sun is reflected in a
mirror, the splendour of the Atma is reflected in the Buddhi. Then
the shining Chaithanya of the Buddhi is reflected in the Manas;
the shining of the Manas falls upon the senses; the light from the
senses falls upon the body. Now, what is the connection between
all these? The relationship of all is the splendour of the Atma,
is it not? The activity of every other thing is caused by the fact
that there is a Buddhi, which can reflect that splendour, is it
not? So, note how the Buddhi is related: this side with the Atma;
and that side, with the Manas and the Indriyas, senses!
Bhaktha: Then, what is the relation
between the Jiva, which says 'I' and the senses and the body?
Swami: There is no relation at all! The 'I' is separate from the
body, the mind etc. The 'I' simply superimposes on the Jiva, that
is, itself, the body-consciousness and the internal behaviours of
the mind etc. 'I am fair' says the Jiva, superimposing upon itself
some thing with which it has no connection. 'I am dumb', it says,
making the same mistake about the senses. It says it has this
desire and that and imposes on itself the activities of the Manas
etc. All this is mere superimposition. The basic truth is only
one, the Paramathma, the Paramjyothi, the eternal, the true, is
only one! Understand this well.
Bhaktha: Ah; What superb teaching, Swami,
if only this teaching of the principle of the Atma, which even
children can grasp, spreads over the whole world, the world will
emerge from darkness to light.
Swami: That is the reason why I converse with you about every
point and allow all to partake in it. The sun's light falls upon
the mirror, the light from the mirror falls upon the bungalow, the
light upon the bungalow falls upon the eye. Similarly, this
"Sandeha Nivarini" has been decided upon in order that the
illumination of My teaching may fall upon the Bhaktha mirror, and
thence onto the "Sanathana Sarathi" bungalow; in order that from
there its effulgence may shield light on the peace and harmony of
the world.
Dialogue IX
Top of the page
Swami: O, you have come! Well. What is the
news?
Bhaktha: What other news have we except
yours? I heard that Your Kerala tour was most pleasant and
wonderful. I am sad I was not destined to join.
Swami: Why are you sad for it? Listen to the account and be happy,
that is all. Have the confidence and the hope that when next such
an opportunity presents itself, you may be able to join. Do not be
brooding over the past.
Bhaktha: What is the use of confidence and
hope when one is not destined? Hope will only cause greater
disappointment.
Swami: Has destiny a shape and a personality so that you can
recognise it even before it shows itself? You should not hang on
its favour, talking all the time of destiny, destiny... How can
that destiny itself fructify without your will and wish, taking
practical form, as action? Whatever be the destiny, it is
essential to continue acting. Karma has to be done, even to attain
one's destiny.
Bhaktha: If one is destined, everything
will come of itself, isn't it?
Swami: That is a big mistake. If you sit quiet with the fruit in
your hand, hoping that its juice will reach the mouth, how can you
take it? It is sheer stupidity to complain that destiny denied you
the juice, without squeezing and swallowing the fruit. Destiny
gave the fruit into your hand; Karma alone can make you enjoy it.
Karma is the duty; destiny the result. Results cannot emerge
without action.
Bhaktha: So, Swami, we should not sit with
folded hands, placing all burdens on destiny, isn't it?
Swami: Listen. You should never underestimate your powers; engage
yourselves in action commensurate with that power. For the rest,
talk of destiny to your heart's content. It is wrong to desist
from the appropriate Karma, placing reliance on destiny. If you do
do so, even destiny will slip out of your hands. Whoever he be, he
must engage himself in Karma.
Bhaktha: Yes, yes, Swami. In the Gita also
Arjuna is told, "Even I do Karma; the universe cannot go on if I
desist from Karma. And so, if you withdraw from it, how can you
realise the result?" I believe now that Karma is Purusha-lakshana,
the hallmark of men.
Swami: And of women too. It is Prakriti-lakshana. All beings, men
or women, trees or animals, worms, insects, all have to do Karma;
everything in the universe is bound by this law. There is no
escaping this obligation. Karma is the characteristic of Prakriti.
Do not refer to it as Purusha-lakshana. Paramathma is the one and
only Purusha. Prakriti is all Sakthi, feminine. You are all not
Purushas, remember.
Bhaktha: But Swami, there is that
distinction in nature; how is it correct to say that all are
feminine?
Swami: You may imagine it to be so, guided by your natural reason,
but the reality is not that. All this is just secular experience;
temporal, temporary. They are not the basic truth. This is simply
play-acting; mere impersonation. In some plays, men take the role
of women. Sometimes women enact the role of men in plays. Are
they, therefore, men? In the drama, Prakriti, all the actors are
feminine, though there may be men roles too. The genuine Purusha
is only one, that is Siva, the Atma. The Atma is immanent in every
one, but for this reason alone, all cannot be deemed masculine.
The Prakriti theatre is like a girls' school where all the roles
of the play are taken up by girls. Sakthi, which is feminine, puts
on all these parts. But do not take the drama as real, my dear
fellow.
Bhaktha: Swami, even after hearing all
this, the nature of the world remains an enigma to me. When one
side is seen, it strikes me as real; when the other side is
presented, it strikes me as unreal. Nothing is definite.
Swami: That is exactly the nature of Mithya. It means that the
world is neither Sathya nor Asathya, it is real as well as unreal.
You are born in Mithya, you are enmeshed in it, and so you cannot
distinguish this from that, the Sathya from the Asathya.
Bhaktha: Then sitting aside this
discussion of Mithya, tell me something, Swami, about that Sathya,
that Purusha, whoever He is.
Swami: The Purusha has neither birth nor death, he undergoes no
change. He is Chithswarupa, Jnanaswarupa. Dharma or codes of
social conduct are not of His nature; so, he is not Dharmaswarupa.
The Jnana which is his nature, does not change, is not corrected
or supplemented from time to time; it is eternal wisdom. Light is
its nature and so its does not admit of a dot of darkness. The sun
does not have effulgence added to it from the world it illumines;
it will emit splendour whether there are worlds or not.
The Purusha is self-luminous. He is always
the object of knowledge; he cognises all Vrittis or mutations of
the Chittha or consciousness; he is modification-less, Aparinaami,
unevolved. The Chittha is Parinaami, it changes and evolves. The
Purusha is sentience itself; he is not affected by apprehension or
non-apprehension. No Vyapara or activity can affect Him. Even when
unmanifested, effulgence is his nature.
The seed in the soil grows into a tree,
the tree is the manifested form of the seed. This change from seed
to tree and tree to seed shows that the Sakthi in the seed has
Vyapara. This is Parinaama. But the Purusha is unchanging,
unaffected. He is the see-er. He is completely apart from
Prakriti. No deed can diminish His glory, nor exhaust His
personality.
Bhaktha: Then which is Prakriti? Who is
Purusha?
Swami: The principle behind the seen is Prakriti; the principle
behind the see-er is Purusha. Amoolam, moolam, it is said; the
root cause has no root! Causeless both Prakriti and Purusha have
no beginning.
Bhaktha: Then this Samsara too should be
beginningless, isn't it Swami? It resulted from the union of the
two.
Swami: That union is the result of delusion; prompted by delusion,
it produces delusion again. That is the law of the seed and the
tree.
Bhaktha: Union means what, Swami? What is
the condition?
Swami: The reflection of the Purusha in the Gunas, which evolve
from Prakriti, that is union. Listen, just an example. The sun is
not water, neither is water, sun. Still, by their juxtaposition,
reflection is produced. The image has the characteristic neither
of the sun nor of water nor can it be said that it is devoid of
these. When the water is agitated, the image too gets agitated.
The image also shines a little. Again, the magnet is distinct from
the iron, but when the two are brought near, the magnet affects
the iron and makes it similar to itself. This is the relationship
called Samyoga, or union.
Bhaktha: Of these, which is the real
Purusha and which is the active Purusha, tell me.
Swami: Did I not speak of the sun and the image? The image-Purusha
is the doer, the enjoyer, the experiencer. The original, the Bimba
is unaffected. He is the non-doer, the non-experiencer. The
image-Purusha is known therefore, as the Vyavaharikapurusha or the
Grihitha, the acceptor. The Bimba is the true, the eternal, the
real, the Atmaswarupa. The Grihitha is the knower and by that act
of knowing, he has undergone modification.
Bhaktha: Right, Swami. Wonderful. How many
books one should have conned in order to know all this! And, even
then, to grasp the meaning is so hard. I have now known the
Purusha is not in the world, that all this is merely a drama,
Paramathma being the one Purusha. To attain Him, everything in
Prakriti is striving; this is probably what is spoken of as
Siva-Sakthi. Fine, fine.
Swami: You are right. It is also referred to as Jiva-Brahma union.
Every one must strive for this union. The Jiva cannot exist alone;
Moksha-Sadhana has to be done, willy-nilly, by every living thing.
Without it, there can be no peace.
Bhaktha: What does Moksha mean exactly,
Swami? And what is Mukthi?
Swami: Both mean the same. That which is burdened with the Manas
is the Jivi; when the Manas and the Nama and Rupa which it spins
from out of its substance, are destroyed, then the Jivi attains
Moksha. Then it becomes one with Brahmam; that is Moksha. When the
Ganga or the Godavari reach the sea, their separate names, forms,
tastes and limits all disappear and they acquire the name, form,
taste and limit of the sea itself.
Until the Jivas attain the end of the
mind, they bear the Nama, Rupa and the Ruchi of delusion, myness
and I-ness; when the Jivi nears the sea, these characteristics
begin to disappear slowly; when the Gunas as well as the mutations
of the mind are destroyed, then one can say that union has been
accomplished with Brahmam. How can the Ganga which has merged with
the ocean be sweet? If it is said that one has merged in Brahmam,
he should not have the three Gunas, nor any taste of Manas. Such
full union is known as Sayujyamukthi.
Bhaktha: O, how grand, Swami. Bless every
one to attain that union; then the world will really be happy.
Swami: What? For Me to bless so would be to go against the freedom
you are endowed with. Take up the Sadhana prescribed for winning
that blessing; gain the blessing by effort, that is the way. It is
not something that is given away. You do not pray to the sun to
make the rays fall on you, do you? Shining is His nature; He is
doing it always. Remove the obstacles between you and the sun and
the rays are on you. So too, keeping the obstacles of delusion,
myness and I-ness between you and the rays of grace, what is the
use of complaining that they do not fall on you? What can the rays
do?
Bhaktha: That is as good as saying that we
must remove all traces of I-ness and myness from our minds.
Swami: Why do you say, "As good as saying?" I am saying it
emphatically, over and over again. If you seek the rays of grace,
try and remove the obstacles. Remember, even if you do not strive
for it now, you will feel the urge some time later; you cannot
escape that urge. It has to happen some day, this shuffling off
the coils of delusion. Why postpone the day of joy, the day of
liberation? Strive for this from this very day, nay, this very
minute. You may leave now, my boy. But come again. I must tell you
one more thing. Do not go to extremes; be steady; be patient.
Dialogue X
Top of the page
Swami: Well! You look so full of joy
today!
Bhaktha: You have yourself said that man
is the embodiment of joy, isn't it?
Swami: Then you must always be in this mood; do you remain so?
Bhaktha: I am trying as far as possible.
Swami: Why do say 'trying'? Does not sorrow flee the instant
reality is known?
Bhaktha: But what is the reality, Swami?
Swami: All that 'is' is unreal! The efforts you undertake, the
words you utter, are all unreal; when you know this, the reality
will be evident. Remove all the unreal ideas, opinions, acts and
the truth that is hidden can be seen. Piling up all this on top,
if you ask, what is reality, how can it be seen?
Bhaktha: How is it possible to take all
that is done, spoken, seen, felt, listened to, as unreal?
Swami: First, understand who is experiencing all these. You refer
to the body as 'I'. 'I', isn't it? That it unreal. When the
experiencing 'I' is itself unreal, how can the experiences be
real? All have the same Atma. The person who experienced is not
'you'; the person who listened is not 'you'. You only witnessed
all this.
Bhaktha: You said, Swami, that in
everything there is Atma; is there Atma in a dead man?
Swami: Oh! a good question indeed! Is it more to solve your doubt
or the doubt of a dead person?
Bhaktha: Mine.
Swami: Well it is only when you have awakened from deep sleep or
Sushupthi that you are aware there is an 'I', isn't it? In the
same manner, there is the Atma in the corpse also.
Bhaktha: Then how can it be called dead,
how can death happen, when there is Atma?
Swami: If you discriminate properly, there is no dying and no
living. A moving body is called living and a still one dead. In
dreams any number of living bodies and corpses are seen. On waking
they do not exist. Similarly, this world, both moving and still,
is nonexistent... Death means the fading out of the 'I'
consciousness. Rebirth happens when 'I' consciousness comes again.
This is what is called birth and death, my boy! Ahamkara is born,
Ahamkara dies, that is all.
Bhaktha: So, I exist always, is it?
Swami: Of course, you do! When the 'I' consciousness is there, you
exist. When it is not there also you exist. You are only the base
for the awareness; you are not the awareness.
Bhaktha: But they say, 'attained
liberation', 'attained Mukthi', etc. What is that?
Swami: Understanding the root of death and birth, one must destroy
completely the awareness of the separate 'I'; that condition is
'Mukthi".
Bhaktha: So, when I die, I and You are
one, isn't it?
Swami: Who said 'No'? That feeling of one, when you are firmly
established in it, there is nothing separate at all.
Bhaktha: Until then, in order to identify
the real 'I' in the unreal 'I', they say that the support of a
Guru is wanted; how far is that true, Swami?
Swami: It is only when you have so many 'I's that you need some
one's support, is it not? When all is one, why seek another?
Still, until that Aham or that 'I' fades out, this speaking 'I'
and this listening 'you' have to be there. When that I is gone,
whom to speak to? Who listens? All are one. The reflection of
Atma, conditioned by Chith is Easwara: Easwara conditioned by the
Anthahkarana is the Jiva, is it not?
Bhaktha: But what exactly is this
Chidaabhaasa?
Swami: Chidaabhaasa means the 'I' awareness conditioned by the
Chith; that one became three, the three became five, the five
became many. The 'I' awareness (Sathwa) became three on account of
contact with Rajas and Thamas; in those three the five Bhoothas or
elements arose; and through those five, the manifold happened. It
is this that causes the illusion that the 'I' is the body.
Speaking in terms of Akasa, there are three: Chidaakaasam,
Chiththaakaasam and Bhoothaakaasam.
Bhaktha: What is Chidaakaasam?
Swami: That is the Atma.
Bhaktha: Chiththaakaasam?
Swami: Its deflection. That is to say, Chiththam. When that
changes into Manas, Buddhi and Ahamkaram, it is called
Anthahkaranam, a word which means the internal senses, the inner
Indriyas. Chidaabhaasam having the Anthahkaranam is the Jiva.
Bhaktha: And, Bhoothaakaasam?
Swami: Chidaakaasam conditioned by Chiththaakaasam. When it sees
the elemental Aakaasam, (the Bhoothaakaasam), it is Mano-aakaasam;
when it sees the object, the Vasthu, it is Chinmaya. That is why,
my dear fellow, it is said "The Manas alone is for man the cause
for both bondage and liberation." The mind manufactures any amount
of delusion.
Bhaktha: How can the delusion disappear,
Swami?
Swami: When you grasp its secret through inquiry, the many merge
in five, the three in one, and the I exists as I. When you get
headache, you apply ointment; when it disappears you are as you
were. The delusion that 'I am the body' is similar to this. It
will disappear, if you apply the ointment of Vichara or inquiry.
Bhaktha: Can everyone adopt this path of
inquiry?
Swami: No, my boy. It is only for those whose Chitha has become
ripe.
Bhaktha: Then what should we do to reach
that ripe stage?
Swami: Now we have come to the place from which we started! Have
you not got things like Japam, Dhyanam, Puja and Pranayama for
this? Steadily, through these, you become ripe and become capable
of understanding the 'I' by inquiry into reality. For such men,
the Atma is not something different from themselves or your self.
All is Atman!
Bhaktha: But, Swami, You mentioned only
Japam, Dhyanam, Bhajana etc. Some advanced persons adopt Mounam,
the vow of silence. Of what use is it? What exactly is Mounam?
Swami: The illumination of the soul is Mounam! How can there be
Mounam without the Atma being illuminated? Without that, merely
keeping the mouth shut is not silence. Some adopt the vow of
silence, but communicate, writing on paper or slate; or the eye
points successively to the letters of the alphabet on a chart! All
this is pseudo-Mounam! It is only another way of talking without
interruption! There is no need to attain silence. Silence is ever
with you. What you have to do is only to remove all things that
disturb it!
Bhaktha: But many persons do not open
their mouth to speak. You mean that this is useless?
Swami: Who said so? If you do not use the tongue, if you are
silent in order to keep out the external obstacles to Sadhana, you
certainly can develop your thoughts, you can desist from
disturbing others, you can escape criticism and worry from others,
you will get concentration, your brain will be saved from
unnecessary burden and it can improve much. With such a brain, you
carry on Smarana of the Lord's name better. All these advantages
you will realise when you do Sadhana.
Bhaktha: Then, for the full Jnani all this
is unnecessary?
Swami: There is no full Jnani in the world! He is in no need of
the world itself; they, why does he need all this?
Bhaktha: If that is so, who are those
people called Jnanis?
Swami: The silent men I spoke about just now. Jnani is a term
applied by courtesy; a full Jnani is nonexistent in the world. The
Jnani must know 'All as one'! Your Jnanis are all either experts
in logic, or experts in the knowledge of the world; they have not
known the reality.
Bhaktha: Who are the real Jnanis?
Swami: He who knows the Atma as Atma will know himself, as milk
added to milk, oil to oil, or water to water. When the physical
body dies, they likewise mere in the Atma. But some may have some
traits still persisting. They continue to have some resolutions
and desires. Until these are exhausted, they will wander in the
world, with body. Such men are called also 'Bits of divinity born
as men, Daivaamsasambhuthas'. This is also as per the Lord's will.
Bhaktha: Why should this difference arise,
Swami?
Swami: It arises out of each one's Sadhana and Sankalpa. Eat a
mango and you belch its smell. How can you prevent it? The belch
brings the perfume of the thing eaten.
Bhaktha: Will such men too have
limitations? Upadhis?
Swami: Without Upadhis, how can work get on? They too have it. But
only in a subtle form, until they attain transcorporeal Mukthi,
Videha Mukthi.
Bhaktha: What is that, Swami?
Swami: Their acts are like the line drawn on water, seen while the
line is being drawn; absent as soon as it is finished. While being
done, you notice it, in an instant, it is not noticeable any more.
Bhaktha: Swami, you said that a Jnani has
renunciation as his hallmark. How does 'this' agree with 'that'?
Swami: That is true! Renunciation is his hallmark. If out of the
traits of previous birth he gets attached, he must know that it is
only for the body and not for him. This attachment damages the
bliss of Jivanmukthi; Jnana is most important for Videhamukthi.
Bhaktha: Even if one has no Jnana, can one
attain Mukthi by mere Vairagyam.
Swami: What a foolish question! How can the fruit be sweet without
ripening? Vairagyam cannot arise except from Jnana. There is no
Moksha without Vairagyam. Be sure of that!
Bhaktha: Then where does Bhakthi come in?
Swami: We have come to the very beginning again! Earlier than
Jnana it is the form of Bhakthi. Earlier than Bhakthi it is the
form of Anurakthi, affection. All these are one. Anurakthi is the
flower, Bhakthi is the fruit; it is ripe as Jnanam; Vairagyam is
the sweet juicy final stage. Without one, you cannot have the
next. In order to tend the fruit until the juice and taste are
developed, you must practise daily prayer etc., mentioned above.
But, from the first, have in view the oneness of all. Understand
that there is no 'other'.
Bhaktha: At least, to keep up appearances
in the world one has sometime to say 'this is mine'. What is one
to do then?
Swami: Of course, you may have to say so. But simply because you
say so, what need is there for you to feel separateness between I
and you? When you travel in a carriage, do you take the carriage
as 'I'? Look at the sun. It gets reflected in a small pot filled
with water, in a broad river, in a mirror, or a polished pot. For
this reason does the sun feel that all these things are 'He'? Does
it get sad when the pot breaks, or the river gets dry? This is
exactly like that. If you take 'I' to be the body, then it is all
bother! If you don't take it so, you will shine like the sun,
independent of anything else. Besides, you will be immanent
everywhere.
Bhaktha: That is as much as to say each
must first discover for himself who he is.
Swami: Exactly. Inquire into that first. Of course, for those who
are not competent, this will be too hard. So, those experienced in
this line say that such men should not be told these things. If
you tell 'You are Yourself Brahmam,' 'You have attained Moksha,
You are in that stage', to those not competent, they will do no
Sadhana, they will act without any rule or order, and they will
pay no regard to right and wrong. This must be revealed only by a
Guru or by the command of the Lord! Those who have the thirst and
the determination to undergo the discipline, of course, can ask
about it! But it must be practised; there is no use simply hearing
it and repeating, 'All is one'. That is meaningless.
Bhaktha: Swami, Sankara has already said,
"Viswamdarpana drsyamaananagaree thulyam hianthargathamy etc. (the
world, if you really penetrate into its inner meaning, is like a
city seen through a mirror). This vision that the Jagath is
unreal; that it is all Maya... is this for common people or for
Jnanis also?
Swami: The Jnani's eye sees all things as Brahmam! The Ajnani or
the person without Jnana cannot understand whatever is said! So,
all Sastras are intended to benefit the middlings.
Bhaktha: This means that all Sadhanas are
included in the Vicharana Marga, the path of inquiry?
Swami: Yes. The teaching of the Vedhantha is about 'Who am I'? And
to make this inquiry, only those equipped with the four
instruments are competent. The purpose of the four is to realise
that the Atma is real and that all else is unreal; also, to
discriminate between Atma and all else.
Bhaktha: How is that to be realised,
Swami?
Swami: By inquiring into the nature of the Atma! First they do all
varieties of Sadhana and finally enter upon this. While a child,
they teach you A B C D, isn't it? Even M.A., and B.A. curricula
consist of this A B C D and their permutations and combinations!
But, to realise this fact one has to complete one's studies! The
Sastras are based on Akshara; meaning both letter and the
imperishable. All Margas are based on the Vichara Marga.
Bhaktha: But there are some who attain
Samadhi. Will they have all this enquiry etc. in Samadhi?
Swami: Wonderful fellow! How can there be enquiry in Samadhi? When
you sleep soundly, do you have any thoughts about the world around
you? This is also like that.
Bhaktha: There will be no Manas in
Samadhi, isn't it?
Swami: The Manas that persists in sleep will be there also.
Bhaktha: They talk of a Thuriya stage, (a
beyond stage) in Samadhi. What is that, Swami?
Swami: Beyond the waking, the dreaming and the deep sleep stages.
Bhaktha: Why is it that those stages are
absent there? What are the characteristics of that stage?
Swami: Those three are the characteristics of I-ness, Ahamkara,
the person with Manas, who does all acts. That will not be present
in the Thuriya stage. It would have disappeared long ago. For
them, it is all the same, with eyes open or with eyes closed. It
is all one.
Bhaktha: Swami, without that Aham, how can
they talk?
Swami: What was Aham in the beginning, when the reality is
grasped, is transformed as Swarupa, the true entity; this is
referred to as the destruction of the Mind, Mano-naasanam.
Bhaktha: So, this Nirvikalpa Samadhi is
all Naasanam?
Swami: Well, my boy, Samadhis are all merging, Laya, not
destruction. The Sadhaka stage is when you have both construction
and destruction.
Bhaktha: This subject is very interesting,
Swami.
Swami: Don't sit quiet, merely appreciating it. Practise it in
daily life. All right, you can take leave.
Bhaktha: Very good Swami. Please bless me
in that practise. I shall be back soon.
Dialogue XI
Top of the page
Bhaktha: Swami! I have one doubt; can I
ask you?
Swami: Certainly, Why do you say, 'Can I ask you'?
Bhaktha: Some people describe Brahmam as
Asthi-Bhaati-Priyam; what does it mean? How are these related to
Brahmam?
Swami: Is that the doubt? Asthi means 'that which is'; Bhaati
means 'that which shines'; Priyam means - of course, you know it,
don't you?... pleasing, desirable, capable of satisfying. All that
is Priyam to you is Brahmam!
If you dearly love a dog, that dog too is
Brahmam! The dog has a name and form. If you remove both your name
and form and its name and form, then Brahmam alone remains. Name
and form are 'past obstructions', Bhoutha-prathibandha. The
absence of name and form is Brahmam. In all the multifold names
and forms, there is inherent just one Brahmam. You have to
recognise that is-ness in all. The 'is-ness' is Asthi, the
knowledge of the knower is the Bhaati, the effulgence, the shining
splendour. That too is Brahmam.
There is a yearning, isn't it, to see it,
experience it, to seek for it? This is due to the Priyam, the
attraction, the charm. These three are basically characteristic of
Brahmam, my dear boy!
Bhaktha: What is this Satchidananda they
speak of?
Swami: Atma itself if known as Sat-Chit-Ananda, because its nature
is Asthi-Bhaati-Priyam.
Bhaktha: Swami, since 'loveableness',
Priyam, is also its nature, should not everything be loveable?
But, scorpions, snakes and wild animals, these do not evoke love!
Swami: You may not love them. But they love each other, don't
they? A thief likes another thief; a devotee likes another
devotee; each loves his own kind.
Bhaktha: I do not understand all this
clearly, Swami. Tell me some example, if there is any, of this
Asthi-Bhaati-Priyam, from the present world?
Swami: My dear boy; why say, 'if there is any'? When all is
Brahmam, which one is not an example of that! Now, you go to a
picture. The picture exists on the screen; it persists, it is.
That is 'Asthi'. Who sees it and understands it? You. So it is
'Bhaati'. The names and forms, which are Priyam, loveable, come
and go. Even if you set them aside without being deluded by them,
the screen is always there. One point has to be noted here. The
pictures fall on the screen, by means of a beam of light projected
through a small slit in the wall of the machine room. But, if it
comes from the entire room without the slit, escaping from that
limitation, the figures will not be seen! The screen will be fully
bathed in light! So too, if the world is seen through the small
slit of one's mind, the manifold multicolored creation will be
cognisable. If the floodlight of Atmajnana is poured, and you see
it through the Atma, it will be one unlimited light and no
individual picture can be cognised. That is to say, all will be
cognised as the one indivisible Brahmam, do you understand?
Bhaktha: I have understood it clearly,
Swami. Now I know what is meant by the 'obstruction of the past'.
What are 'the obstructions of the present?
Swami: Good, I shall tell you. The obstructions of the present are
of four types: attachment to sense objects, cynical criticism,
dullness of understanding, and absurd conceit. The first is the
case of attachment to objects that attract the senses. The second
makes men discover wrong meanings in the teachings of the Guru.
The third causes confusion, because things explained by the Guru
are not grasped at all. The last obstruction makes one feel that
one is a great scholar, Pundit, or ascetic, mistaking the body and
the senses for the Atma.
Bhaktha: And the 'obstructions of the
future'?
Swami: Oh! They come always through sinful deeds. They come and
obstruct unawares!
Bhaktha: How are we to meet them, Swami?
Swami: It is not possible for all. The aspirant can to some extent
be cognisant of the approaching wrong and its wiles. It creates a
desire, which puts on the cloak of want. Then you must recognise
it as an 'obstruction of the future'. It is difficult to be
forewarned like this as the result of the effort of one single
life. It may take many births to acquire this education.
Bhaktha: Are there any who have so learnt
it?
Swami: Why, there are. The scriptures speak of Bharatha and
Vasudeva; Bharatha required two or three births; Vasudeva had to
be born once.
Bhaktha: That means these three
obstructions cannot be overcome except after many lives. Can we
not succeed without all that bother?
Swami: Why? The aspirant can, by reasoning out the nature of these
three, escape from being worried by them. Otherwise, it may take
many lives.
Bhaktha: Swami, how to get over the
'obstructions of the present'?
Swami: There is a way for this also. Through Karma, the
appropriate Karma! There is no obstruction that cannot be
surmounted. Attachment to sense-objects can be removed by Sama.
Dama, Uparathi, Thithiksha, by developing, purity, self-control,
withdrawal of desires and the ability to suffer. Dullness of
understanding can be removed by listening again and again.
Constant meditation on the things heard will abolish the habit of
cynical criticism. All absurd conceit will vanish through the
teachings one imbibes.
Bhaktha: Swami, to master all this seems
impossible for everyone! To make it easy for all, tell me which is
important?
Swami: My dear fellow, to know a thing, Vijnana is necessary.
Ajnana makes one ignorant, don't you know?
Bhaktha: So many people say so many things
about this Vijnana and this Ajnana. What is the basic thing about
this Vijnana and this Ajnana. What is the basic thing behind both,
tell me.
Swami: Now you have come again to the very
first step. Ajnana is the mental attitude that has reference to
the external object and Vijnana is the mental attitude that has
reference to the internal subject. Ajnana is known also as Manas
and Chiththam. When the activity and attitude turn inwards, they
are called Buddhi and Anthahkaranam.
Bhaktha: Some say that the Jnani will have
only two things, the desire to attain the other world and the
burden of the past Karma: is that true?
Swami: Both the Jnani and the Ajnani will have desire, absence of
desire for the other world, and the burden of past Karma, all in
equal measure. Their experiences also will be in equal measure.
Only, the Jnani will not have the consciousness that he is the
doer; so, he will not be bound. The Ajnani is conscious that he is
the doer and so he gets bound. This is the distinction. I have
already told you, haven't I, that 'the mind' is the cause of
bondage as well as of liberation? The mind is the cause of
everything.
Bhaktha: Mind, mind, they keep on saying.
What is it? What is its form?
Swami: "Cognition", "understanding" is its form. If you know the
basis of that knowing, there will be no bondage at all!
Bhaktha: What is the basis?
Swami: The basis is what you refer to as I. Seeking for the I, if
you are in that I state, however many "understandings" come or do
not come, you will remain unaffected.
Bhaktha: Right. That is very good, Swami.
Please make all this soak into our brains, so that we may realise
the purpose of our lives... I shall take leave, Swami.
Swami: Do so. Depart gladly and return later. Take my blessings
with you.
Dialogue XII
Top of the page
Bhaktha: Swami, at Venkatagiri, during the
'Adhyatmika Sabha', You said some things, which I could not
clearly understand: can I ask about them now?
Swami: I am happy when anyone asks me about things, which he has
not understood. Of course, you have every right.
Bhaktha: You said Sthula-rupa and
Sukshma-rupa, the gross form and the subtle form, isn't it? These
two, are they the characteristics of the Manas only? Or are they
related to everything?
Swami: They are characteristic of everything; in fact, all the
names and forms found in the gross exist also in the subtle stage!
Why, the gross is there, only to make you understand the subtle!
Bhaktha: Well then, Swami, we see the
gross firmament, the Sthula-aakasa; has it a subtle Aakasa also?
Swami: My dear boy, all this exists in that subtle Aakasa. The
subtle Aakasa is as imperceptible and as all-pervading as the
gross Aakasa.
Bhaktha: What is its name, Swami?
Swami: It is known as the Sukshma Hridayaakasa, the subtle
firmament of the heart.
Bhaktha: How can that be all-pervading?
Swami: Nothing else possesses the extent, the area, the breadth
that this Hridayaakasa has. See how many scenes, how many
feelings, how many conjectures, are immersed and imbedded in it!
Bhaktha: Then, have we a sun also in that
subtle sky?
Swami: Of course! Who said, no? Without that, how can there be all
this splendor, all this light and wisdom and brightness?
Bhaktha: What is its name, Swami?
Swami: When the heart is the Aakasa, the sun, naturally, is the
Buddhi or the intellect that illuminates that sky. The effulgence
of the Buddhi is as bright as the rays of the sun. So, the subtle
sun is Buddhi.
Bhaktha: Then it is possible that the moon
also in subtle form is in the Aakasa of the heart.
Swami: Why do you ask about all these, one by one? Did I not tell
you at the beginning itself? Every gross name and form has its
corresponding subtle form and name. The moon in its subtle form is
Prema, with its cool rays pleasing to the heart. Love is the
subtle form of the moon.
Bhaktha: Excuse me, Swami; the Pandavas
and the Kauravas waged a war, isn't it? How are they supposed to
have waged the 'subtle' war, these 'subtle' Pandavas and their
opposite numbers, the 'subtle' Kauravas?
Swami: Why do you say, "supposed to have waged"? They are waging
it even today in the subtle form! In this war, the evil qualities
are the Kauravas; the good qualities, Sathya, Dharma, Santhi,
Prema and Ahimsa, are the five Pandava brothers. The evil
qualities are many and so the Kauravas too are a horde. Each one
under his own Hridayaakasa, on his owns Chidbhumi is waging this
struggle, every moment.
Bhaktha: Swami, they say the Pandavas are
children of the king, Pandu and the Kauravas are the offspring of
the king, Dhritharastra. In the 'subtle' form, how are we to
recognise them?
Swami: Both are disputants for the kingship of the selfsame heart;
they are in everyone as Ajnani and Sujnani, the unwise personality
and the wise personality. The unwise blind ruler is
Dhritharashtra; the wise Pandu is the father of all good
qualities. Have you understood?
Bhaktha: But then, Swami, excuse me; in
that war there were millions of soldiers and chariots, and the
subjects; who are they in this 'subtle' conflict?
Swami: Of course, they are all there, in man. The million feelings
and thoughts and impressions are the soldiers and subjects. The
ten Indriyas are the regiments; the five senses are the chariots.
In every one's heart there is this perpetual war being fought
between good and evil, between the Pandavas and the Kauravas. Is
that clear?
Bhaktha: Well, who is lord Krishna in the
subtle war; He who was then neutral in that struggle for power?
Swami: Don't you know? He is the witness, known as Atma. He is
Sarathi of the chariot of the Jiva.
Bhaktha: Another question. All these
people had Hasthinapura as their capital then. In man, which is
the Hasthinapura?
Swami: The basis for all these subtle manifestations, these men,
chariots, Pandavas and Kauravas is, as you know, this Asthinapura,
the city of bones, this body. This skeleton is Asthinapura! Both
have nine gates. There, both the Kauravas and the Pandavas were
born; they played and were trained there; they grew up together
there. So also, in this same Asthinapura all the qualities, good
and bad, are born and do grow; they develop and subside, they
watch and hate each other, all in he same body. Are not the
warring rulers in this body also Ajnani and Sujnani, the unwise
personality and the wise personality?
Bhaktha: Yes, Swami. There is an intimate
connection between the Mahabharatha war and the qualities and
conduct of man. Really, the relationship is there, without doubt.
What a fine comparison! As you said this type of warfare is taking
place in everyone, even now. Well Swami, when will this war end?
Swami: When will this war end, you ask? When both 'bad qualities'
and 'good qualities' fade out and man becomes quality-loss; then
alone can man have Santhi.
Bhaktha: At the time, this battlefield,
this Asthinapura, the city of bones will not exist, is it?
Swami: When there is a battle, there must be a battlefield. When
you have no battle, why bother about a field.
Bhaktha: Can we not avoid the battle
altogether?
Swami: Why not? Kings develop the spirit of war because they have
confidence in their subjects. The subjects encourage the rulers to
unleash the hounds of war. Delusions are the subjects, who push
the individual into the battle. When there is a paucity of such
subjects, war too will not be waged. So divest yourself of such
subjects as delusions, illusions, feelings of 'I' and 'mine' and
then, you can be at peace, enjoying undisturbed Santhi, my boy!...
You can go now! Wait! Let me tell you one thing: entertaining
doubts of all kinds is also a delusion, Vyamoha! Strive to be free
from even this trait! Well, go and come some time later.
Dialogue XIII
Top of the page
Bhaktha: Swami, last time you spoke of the
Mahabharatha war; in the same manner, does the Ramayana also
happen in every one's heart?
Swami: Undoubtedly! It does take place systematically and in the
same sequence.
Bhaktha: Then, in what form does Rama come
in this?
Swami: The Atma is Rama. He has come, in the character of Jivi,
wearing the dress called body.
Bhaktha: Then, being a Sankalpasiddha,
whose will prevails, and being omnipotent, who is all-powerful,
why does He suffer so much?
Swami: It is all play: His Leela, sport. What can be joy for Him?
And what can be suffering for Him? He is Anandaswarupa, who knows
neither. By His will He can produce everything. He has enacted the
Ramayana on the stage of the theatre of the world, with Himself
taking a role and showing each quality or Guna as a separate form.
Such a Ramayana is taking place, in every heart. The Rama in the
heart, the Atmarama, is observing everything, as witness.
Bhaktha: But the inert material Jada, the
Jivi, how does it enter into this Ramayana?
Swami: This Jada accepts the active Chaithanya, viz. the knowledge
of Brahmam. Chaithanya is born with the name of Seetha. The
Jada-Chaithanya become one. This is referred to as Seetharama. So
long as the Jada and the Chaithanya are one, there is not trouble
and no suffering. It is the separation of one of these two that
gives rise to all the bother.
Bhaktha: How is that, Swami?
Swami: Seetha, who is Brahmajnana, goes away from the Atma which
is in the form of the Jiva; hence, falling into the darkness of
the jungle is inevitable. Rama has acted in this way to show us
this; if Seetha or Brahmajnana is allowed to be lost, one cannot
escape wandering about in the jungle of darkness.
Bhaktha: If that is so, what is the
reason, Swami, for this Lakshmana to be always with Him? In our
life what does he stand for?
Swami: One should not be alone in the dark jungle of life; one
should have the Manas, ever by one's side. It is for this that
Lakshmana is kept near, always.
Bhaktha: In the Ramayana, Vali and Sugriva
are described. Who are they?
Swami: When wandering in the dark jungle one gets despair when one
should get discrimination. They have vengeful hatred of each
other. Vali who is despair has to be destroyed; then only can
success come. Despair is Vali; discrimination is Sugriva.
Bhaktha: Hanuman, who appears between
these two, who is he?
Swami: He who is of great help in the conquest of despair, viz.
courage! That is Hanuman, He is courage. Associated with courage,
it is possible to cross the ocean of illusion; that is why Rama
built the Sethu or bridge with the help of Hanuman.
Bhaktha: After crossing the ocean of
illusion, what is to be planned?
Swami: Don't you know what Rama did after crossing over the
bridge? Conquering Moha or illusion, He slew Rajoguna and
Thamoguna in the form of Ravana and Kumbhakarna. The remaining
brother, the last, the Sathwaguna, viz., Vibhishana was crowned
king. The three Gunas have been illustrated in the characters and
careers of the three brothers, Ravana, Kumbhakarna and Vibhishana.
Bhaktha: After this, what has to be
achieved?
Swami: Has to be achieved, do you say? Next, is the attainment of
Anubhavajnana or Seetha; the Jnana reached after experience, Jnana
realised in actual life. When both Jada and Chaithanya unite
again, that is the Pattabhisheka, the coronation; that is to say
Jivanmukthi, salvation for the Jiva. Therefore, the fundamental
teaching of the Ramayana is this: "The Jiva, Manas, Jnana,
despair, discrimination, courage, delusion, Rajas, Thamas, Sathwa;
these demonstrate themselves each in a different form; it to be
learnt how and in what ways each of these can be either acquired
or subdued." All this is done by the Atma, who has come in the
form and with the name of Rama, by His acting, behaving, directing
and guiding. So, the Ramayana has not ended long ago. So long as
in each one's life there is a struggle for achievement through
these paths, and persons attain the Anubhavajnana in the end and
Sathwaguna is crowned at last, until then the Ramayana will
continue to take place in the heart of man. On one side the
Mahabharatha war, on the other side the Ramayana; and on another
the Bhagavatha; thus is life led perpetually. These are the
Sukshma forms of the Ramayana, the Mahabharatha and the
Bhagavatha; do you understand?
Bhaktha: That means, in the Ramayana of
actual life, Atma is Rama, Manas is Lakshman, Brahmajnana is
Seetha; and when that Seetha is lost, Rama falls into the forest
of existence; there, in that forest, there are despair and
discrimination; if we associate ourselves with Hanuman or courage,
we can go across the sea of delusion, with the army of zest,
strength and steadfastness represented by Jambavan, Angada and
other Vanaras; as soon as we cross it, we can destroy the Rajasic
quality and the Thamasic quality symbolised by Ravana and
Kumbhakarna; the Sathwic quality or Vibhishana can then be
crowned; Anubhavajnana or Seetha is then attained. This union of
Jada and Chaithanya, that is, of Seetha and Rama is the Ananda,
Jivanmukthi, salvation for the soul. Ah! What a splendid Ramayana!
The Ramayana accomplished as the son of Dasaratha is being enacted
now as the subtle Ramayana, through Gunas and Indriyas, qualities
and senses in each individual, so to say.
Swami: There is no 'so to say' in this. It is happening as the
subtle Ramayana!
Bhaktha: You said, Swami, that each Guna
and each Indriya adopts in Ramayana a separate form. It causes
some surprise to imagine that the senses also put on some form! In
these, the gross and the subtle Ramayanas, in what form do the
senses appear? Please tell me this.
Swami: Whatever may be the Guna or quality how can it express
itself, without the help of the senses? Gunas are bred in the
senses. The senses of action are five; the senses of knowledge are
five. These ten, with the help of the Manas, create attachment,
isn't it? Otherwise, there can be no merging at all. "Born in
Maya, bred in Maya, man's mission is to master Maya", it is said.
So too, born in the senses, bred in the senses, the Jada
Chaithanya has to master the senses. That is their basic duty,
don't you know? Do you know where Rama, the Jivi, was born? Whose
son is He? Dasaratha has that name because he symbolises the
Dasendriyas, or the ten senses. Whichever Guna or Rupa we
consider, it cannot be unrelated to the ten senses, the senses of
action and of knowledge, the Karmendriyas and the Jnanendriyas, in
the form of Dasaratha, we have the ten.
Bhaktha: Four sons were born of Dasaratha.
Of what were they the forms, Swami?
Swami: From the ten senses, not only four, but any number of Gunas
and Rupas can originate. But only the chiefest, the four,
symbolising the four faces of the Lord, originated by His will.
They are born as Rama, Lakshmana, Bharatha and Sathrughna. They
are Sathya, Dharma, Santhi and Prema in the subtle form. These are
the four faces of the Lord.
Bhaktha: Who among these, Swami, is
Sathya? Who represent Dharma, Santhi and Prema?
Swami: Can't you discover? Rama is Sathya. "The status and the
honour should go to him who has the right, not to me," said
Bharatha when he was offered the crown, and so he is Dharma.
Placing complete faith on the Atma, that is, Rama, believing that
there is no Ananda sweeter than its uninterrupted company,
Lakshmana followed Rama and so he is Prema. Having no individual
separate ambition of his own, treading the paths followed by these
three, Sathrughna was calm and unperturbed and so he is Santhi. Is
that clear?
Bhaktha: Yes, Swami, but these four were
born of three mothers; who are those mothers?
Swami: As I said just now, 'born in Maya, bred in Maya, one has to
transcend this Maya'; so also, one in born from Gunas, one is
brought up with Gunas; finally, one has to transcend the Gunas.
The three mothers represent three Gunas! Among them, Kousalya is
Sathwaguna, Kaikeyi is Rajoguna, and Sumithra, Thamoguna; they
play those roles, in the epic. Dasaratha in the form of
Dasendriyas is associated with these Gunas so he is
Indriyagunaswarupa. It is because man cannot easily grasp the
truth through the senses and the Gunas only, that the Lord taught
him through the Ramayana, the Lord teaching us even to this day.
The Lord performed that day the gross Ramayana; and today He is
performing the Sukshmaramayana on the stage of the heart of man.
Dialogue XIV
Top of the page
Bhaktha: Swami, the inner meaning of the
Mahabharatha and the Ramayana which You explained is really very
interesting. If only one probes deeply, what else is there in
them? That kind of Mahabharatha and Ramayana is taking place in
every heart, through the action and interaction of Manas, Chittam,
and Buddhi. You said that the Bhagavatham is also occurring in the
same manner. If you will kindly explain how that is happening, we
can, after knowing its inner meaning also, start following the
'subtle' Ramayana and Mahabharatha and Bhagavatham, all three. So
please tell me about the Bhagavatham.
Swami: Well, the Bhagavatham is not like the other two; it has no
qualities and no form! It deals with the Atma which is beyond and
behind the qualities or Gunas, senses or Indriyas, the Manas and
the Chittam; it deals with the powers and prowess of the Atma; and
its apparent activities or Leelas. The Bhagavatham contains the
stories of the incarnations of that which is the witness of
everything.
Bhaktha: What are the forms which that
witness assumed? Why did He assume those forms?
Swami: Really speaking, He is all forms, Sarvaswarupee. There is
no limit to the number or nature of His forms. Still, if something
must be said in conformity with what has happened, Brahma, Vishnu,
Maheswara, Matsya, Kurma, Varaha, Vamana, Narasimha, Rama, and
Krishna, these are Its incarnations. In order to transact the
creation, the preservation and the destruction of the world, and
to punish the wicked and protect the good, He assumes Himself the
form He designs as best at the time and for the purpose He has set
before Himself. When that purpose is realised, He is as before,
the witness, the Atmarupa.
Bhaktha: Rama and Krishna also punished
the wicked and protected the good, isn't it, Swami? Then, how do
you say that in the Ramayana and the Mahabharatha, there is the
Gunaswarupa, while in the Bhagavatham there is no Gunaswarupa?
Swami: You see, Gunas have a beginning and an end; the Atma has
neither. Rama and Krishna too have no qualities, essentially. They
have demonstrated how, being above Gunas, it is possible to keep
all Gunas under control. The Ramayana and the Mahabharatha stories
have an end, isn't it? In that sense, the Bhagavatham has no end.
It speaks of the Lord who has no beginning or end. It tells of the
forms, which the Lord wore in the context of the age, the time and
the object. The other two on the hand, teach the correct policies
to be followed in this false, evanescent world and urge men to
follow Sathya, Dharma, Santhi and Prema. Do you understand?
Bhaktha: Then, the Bhagavatham is of no
practical use to us, so to say!
Swami: What! It is the Bhagavatham that is of most use to the
Sadhakas. It alone explains the real secret of the Lord, His real
glory and His real path! The Ramayana and the Mahabharatha
endeavour to some extent to uplift the common man, the ordinary
man, by moral teaching and example. They show how man can deserve
the Lord's grace. But those who seek to know the nature of the
Atma and of Paramathma should study, more than anything else, the
Bhagavatham.
Bhaktha: Swami, what is the relation
between Bhagavantha, Bhagavatha and the Bhaktha?
Swami: The relationship between the Maharaja, the Yuvaraja and the
Kumararaja! Bhagavantha or the Lord is the Maharaja, of course;
the Bhagavatha is second in rank because it has come from the Lord
as a derivative, with the status of Yuvaraja; the Kumararaja is
dependent on both these and so is the Bhaktha. The status of
Kumararaja is not an ordinary one, he merits the position of the
Maharaja. The rest are inferior to these three. Those who do not
rise up to the status of Bhaktha or Kumararaja have no access to
the court of Maharaja.
Bhaktha: Then, Swami, the Yogis, the
Jnanis, the ascetics, do these not deserve that position?
Swami: Whoever he may be, without Bhakthi and the love of the
higher truth, how can any one become a Yogi, or a Jnani or an
ascetic? They too have Bhakthi in an equal measure. Take Laddu,
Jilebi, Mysore Pak and number of other sweets; in each of them, as
the common cause of sweetness, there must be the one article,
sugar, isn't it? How else can they be made? So also, in these
three paths, the sweetness of the Lord's name or Bhakthi is an
ingredient. Without it, the very names of these objects become
absurd!
Bhaktha: Another point, Swami! Can one
approach the presence of the Lord, only if he has faith in the
Lord and only if with that faith he performs Japa, Dhyana, Bhajana
and Puja? That is to say, is it not possible to attain that
position through the path of truth, the path of Dharma, the path
of Prema, the path of service to others?
Swami: Well, how can the qualities you mention originate without
the fear of sin and the fear of God? Are these paths and the
qualifications needed for them, ordinary and common? No. They are
the doors to the inner apartment of the Lord. Those that follow
those paths can easily reach the precincts of the Lord. But yet,
there is a difference between relatives and friends. Those who
develop only these qualities are friends; but those who practise
them along with devotion to the name and form, become relatives,
that is the difference. The meditation on the name and the Rupa
helps to strengthen the Gunas also. Without that foundation, the
Gunas cannot be strong and firm and pure. The Lord's name and the
Lord's Rupa remove the dross from the qualities of man.
Bhaktha: But the Bhaktha and the man with
good qualities, both attain the same place, isn't it, Swami?
Swami: Certainly. The merely good man becomes a candidate who
deserves the place; the good man who has Bhakthi has a tittle to
the place, he cannot be passed over.
Bhaktha: Swami, there are many people who
are active, doing various things under the slogan, "The service of
man is the service of God"; do their deeds entitle them to the
place?
Swami: Why do you ask so? Certainly; for those that do service
with that attitude. But it is very hard to get that real feeling.
Considering others as men, simply saying that 'serving them is to
serve God', is not sincerity. The mind will then run in two
channels. Grasp the glory of Madhava fully; understand that
Madhava is in every Manava; believe that service to Manava or man
is serving Madhava only; then your actions will certainly entitle
you to the place. What greater qualification is needed than that?
Instead, if 'service' is done for name and honour and fame, and if
there is a craving in the mind for the fruits of one's actions,
then the statement, "Service to man is service to God" has no
meaning, nor will one get the result expected.
Bhaktha: It is very interesting, Swami!
Speaking about the Bhagavatham evoked many holy ideas and morals
today. So if one delves into It, what invaluable truths will
emanate! I am indeed blessed, this day.
Swami: Have you understood it all? Bhagavatham is the story of the
beginningless, the ending-less Atma. It is in both forms, subtle
and gross. It is subtler than the subtlest; grosser than the
grossest. It has no limit or measure. The Ramayana and the
Mahabharatha are Ithihasas, historical epics. The Bhagavatham is
different; it is the description of the Atma; it instructs in the
Path of Bhakthi. It can never end, nor has it ever a "Finis". This
is the significance of the Bhagavatham.
Dialogue XV
Top of the page
Bhaktha: You must remove a big load from
my head, Swami. However much I try to forget it, in whichever
direction I turn, I suffer from it; I am hearing only that! Then
how can I dismiss it from my mind? Finding it impossible, I am
praying to You. Please do not mistake my intention; kindly give a
direct answer, because if you do so, the weight will be lifted
from the heads of all people like me and enthusiasm will increase
for Sadhana. Otherwise, I am worried, we may lose even the little
faith that we have in the Lord and I am afraid we may turn
atheists. Your answer will be of immense help, not only to me but
to all Bhakthas everywhere. Therefore, I pray to You to wipe off
my doubts without hesitation and tell me the real truth, in very
clear terms.
Swami: What is it? Tell me. What is the cause of so much headache?
Bhaktha: Swami, You have told us that man
has four Asrams: Brahmacharya, Garhasthyam, Vanaprastham; and
Sanyasam; and that those who reach the last stage are indeed
blessed, for they attain realisation. Now, please tell us what
exactly is that Sanyasam?
Swami: So this has caused you all the worry! Is it? My dear
fellow, the wearing of the Gerua cloth, the shaving of the head,
these do not make a Sanyasi. He is a person who has given up all
desires. He must be fully immersed, in desire, design and deed,
fully in the one Godhead and in the discipline to attain Him.
Whoever is so immersed is a Sanyasi. Instead, if they retain all
kinds of desires, if they engage themselves in every activity to
realise their desires, then they are Sanyasis, as the saying goes;
that is to say, counterfeits, do you understand?
Bhaktha: But Swami, now we get Sanyasis
very cheap for a Rupee, or for a Paisa, or even for a cigarette!
Among these, whom should we approach, whom should we accept?
Swami: Why are you concerned with all this? You are concerned with
your advancement, your progress. You must crave for a person to
point out to you the right path for your Sadhana. Or, if that is
not possible, you approach and accept your self; that is enough to
give you what you require. Depend upon yourself and your doubts
will be destroyed.
Bhaktha: In that case, Swami, what about
the statement, "Guru-less Vidya is sightless Vidya"? It is
essential to rely on some great person, is it not? To show the
way, I mean.
Swami: Great men have not vanished from the face of the earth, my
child! Do not think that all are of the type you mention. There
are many great men even now; otherwise, how could the world have
daylight, as the saying goes?
Bhaktha: Great men may exist among
Grahasthas, Vanaprasthas or Brahmacharins, Swami! I haven't much
experience with such; but still, I have seen among them people
with big name and fame. However, I can say this: It is very
difficult to discover really holy men among Sanyasis. It is
impossible to find a single Sanyasi without some desire or other.
When Sanyasis have so much desire, what is wrong if householders
have them? To whichever place we go, the one demand is, "Money,
money, money!"
Swami: Really speaking, Sanyasis should have no desire, as you
said. Lust and greed are their dreadful enemies. They should have
no contact with them. They can accept only whatever little food is
given, whenever it is offered, that is all. They can have no
desire for more. That is the vow, the rule. They have nothing to
do with money.
Bhaktha: Well, Swami, excuse me. Sanyasis
are perpetually in need of money! No householder worries so much
as they, for money! They exploit and extract from the disciples
their hard-earned cash. Those who do not give are condemned. Is
all this right, Swami? Is this just? Are these people Gurus?
Swami: No wise person will say that these things are just. How can
I say it is right? Why, can you not ask such Sanyasis once, "Sirs,
why do you need cash? Is it not wrong for you to have this craving
for the fame that comes through money?"
Bhaktha: Oh, I have asked them, Swami.
Swami: What did they say?
Bhaktha: Some said, they wanted money for
their expenses; other said, they wanted to develop their Asram
further. Many such reasons were given. For those who have learnt
to argue, reason-giving is not very hard. It is only when it comes
to believing, that we have to choose and discriminate, isn't it?
Swami: The Guru must engage himself in the progress of the
disciples who come to him for guidance, and not the Asram; the
Asritha is more important than the Asram. The excitement, the
anxiety about the Asram, becomes itself a huge Sramam or burden.
It is on account of this that people lose even the little faith
and devotion that they have and are transformed into atheists.
Such Gurus, instead of giving up all ties, have yoked themselves
tighter; they are beasts of burden, rather. My dear fellow, listen
to Me, do not cast your looks upon the Guru who inflicts pressure
on a disciple to extract money. Keep as far away as possible from
such persons; do not lose faith by contact with them. Preserve it
and develop it, all by yourself.
Bhaktha: We go to such people eager to
learn the higher things of life and to know the path for the
attainment of the Lord; we seek and search for them, for we do not
know which snake lives in which hole; but we find these cobra
Sanyasis and are shocked! The anxious desire that they exhibit for
the Asram, is not that also wrong, Swami? If they want to serve
the public like that, they can as well be just ordinary people and
retain their original names and go about collecting funds and
spending them, isn't it? Calling themselves Sanyasis, and wearing
that dress, getting Upadesam, taking upon themselves numerous vows
at the time of initiation into monkshood, declaring that they have
destroyed all desire,... if later they follow the path of
accumulation, is it not spoiling the very sacredness?
Swami: That individual may be spoiled that is all, my dear fellow;
the sacredness of Sanyas can never be diminished! Do not run away
with that idea. Of course, there are such men in the world today.
But please do not include them in the list of Sanyasis or Swamis.
They have no relationship with these two categories. They only do
harm to their disciples by retaining those designations. Do not
even spend a single thought on them.
Bhaktha: All right, Swami. But there are
some who have built Asrams and who are established as Gurus: for
them, this desire for money etc. is wrong, is it not?
Swami: Why do you ask? Have these people any special adornment
like horns on the head? Really speaking, these people have to be
even more careful. For they train many disciples and so, they must
make a special effort to see that the trainees acquire the right
attitudes and get fully immersed in the contemplation of the Lord.
Otherwise, much injury will be caused. If the Guru pays attention
to the spiritual progress and inward joy of the disciples, the
disciples themselves will struggle for the development of the
Asram. No one need exert any pressure. Instead, forgetting their
progress, if he clamours for so much of money from this disciple
and so much from this devotee for the development of "his" Asram,
he will lose the Asram itself! The disciple will lose devotion and
the Guru will lose his institution!
Bhaktha: Besides all this, Swami, if
anyone points out to them that it is wrong, they get wild and
threaten severe punishments. Is that right, Swami?
Swami: This is an additional wrong. How can it be right? It is not
correct for any Guru to weaken the heart of any disciple; he must
please it and satisfy it. People who frighten and extract are not
teachers, but cheaters. They are not shepherds, but sleep.
Bhaktha: Then what do you advise us to do?
How are we to deal with these people? Please tell us.
Swami: My dear child, give up all talk of people who have lost
their way. Speak of your reaching the path. Give up all contact
with such persons, and cultivate contact with such persons, and
cultivate contacts with places, where there is neither lust nor
greed nor any other desire. Seek for the Guru who looks on all
with equal Prema. The real Guru must have certain qualities. Note
this. If those qualities are present, go there and be happy. If
you do not get such a place, meditate on God within yourself. Do
Dhyanam and Bhajana. That is enough; you need not search for
another place at all. Whenever you have leisure, read good
devotional books. Even from those books, take what you need and
discard the rest. Be careful; do not get entangled in all kinds of
nets and traps.
Bhaktha: What are the qualities of those
great men, Swami?
Swami: They will not have the craving for wealth; nor the ambition
to develop their Asrams; they will neither love those who praise
them nor hate those who blame them; they will not prevent their
disciplines from approaching them; they will not prohibit any one
from approaching them; they will look upon all with equal love;
they will not relish the defamation of others; they will not be
vengeful against those who point out to them their own mistakes
and wrongs; they will always spread Sathya, Dharma, Santhi, and
Prema; they will ever yearn for the joy, welfare and progress of
the devotees. Seek such persons. They are the true Gurus. Do not
even cast a glance at those who are afflicted with anger, anxiety,
hatred, envy etc., or those worrying about name and fame and honor
and status, however pompous their personality, however resounding
their reputation.
Bhaktha: All right, Swami. It is all very
good. But, just one little doubt. These big Gurus, highly learned,
giving long lectures for hours together, how is it that they do
not realise all this? Cannot these big men see their faults
themselves and set them right?
Swami: Well, even an ounce of experience is useful! But, a ton of
learning may prove useless. Many people lecture in colleges, and
pour forth hour after hour, things they have learnt by rote. Can
one become great by merely the length or grandeur of his lectures?
That is like vomiting the swallowed meal. You must see how much of
what is spoken is practised; those who give advice must follow it
themselves. If you cannot avoid doing a thing, do not ask others
to avoid it. So, however learned a person may be, unless he has
experience and practice, it will be simply a nine days wonder, and
a after that he will be neither here nor there. Of course, the
qualities I mentioned are to be noted, not merely in the Gurus,
but in all. So give up this talk about others being bad or wrong;
develop your faith and devotion; strengthen your discipline for
meditation on the Lord; engage yourself in beneficial deeds; speak
only what will bring good; worship the Lord; keep Him, ever in the
memory; do Japam and Dhyanam. If you are immersed in these, you
will not worry at all about the right and wrong of others.
Bhaktha: Swami, you explained the
relationship of the Guru and the Sishya. Looking at present
conditions, he who reveals the reality is not liked at all. Many
of the Gurus, Swamis and Sadhus are, as you said, behaving wrongly
and in many ways ruining their very name. Besides they are acting
contrary to the vows of Sanyasa and the Dharma relating to the
Lord. Such people may not appreciate your statements. They may
even develop animosity, for your laying bare their defects. Or,
what is worse, they may try to justify their conduct and invent
stories and arguments to make their actions appear correct. Your
remarks apply only to the wrongdoers, they do not refer to those
who are engaged in good activities. So, really good Sadhus and
those interested in upholding the ideas will be happy that You
have spoken thus. But regardless of what people might say, please
Swami, help Sadhakas to progress and reveal to us the glory of the
Lord.
Swami: Well, what does it matter to Me how people talk? How can
falsehood be supported, fearing comment? "As the burden, so the
bearer," says the proverb. Only fakes will resent and comment
adversely. The genuine Gurus will rejoice. "Only a thief will feel
his shoulder, when some one announces the theft of a gourd" (as
the saying goes), because he is afraid, whether at the time he has
the stolen gourd actually on his shoulders! Those who do not steal
gourds will not feel their shoulders. Those who are genuine will
have no fear or anger. The others can learn a lesson if they
develop a sense of shame and resolve to mend their ways, at least,
hereafter. For deeds done in ignorance, repentance is the way to
make amends and to earn pardon. Not to repeat the same deed is the
sign of the morally strong.
Dialogue XVI
Top of the page
Bhaktha: Swami, I have a few doubts
concerning the subject of Dhyana which You are now writing about:
can I ask You?
Swami: Of course, you can ask and have your doubts removed. It is
good for you and it gives Me joy.
Bhaktha: Some people practise Dhyana, but
they are unable to know whether the Dhyana has progressed or not!
What do You say about that?
Swami: Progress in Dhyana means the attainment of Ekagratha,
concentration. Each one can judge for himself without doubt, how
far he has been able to succeed in concentration, can't he?
Bhaktha: Some say that they see all sorts
of things during Dhyana; some hear all types of sounds. Do these
indicate progress?
Swami: They are delusions. They handicap progress. They implant
conceit and disperse concentration. The distraction of sights and
sounds is no sign of Dhyanam.
Bhaktha: Then what is to be done when such
are seen?
Swami: Don't allow the mind to wander on to them; never lose sight
of the divine form, which you have pictured for yourself. Be
convinced that these are but obstacles designed to scatter your
attention away from the divine form. If you permit these sights
and sounds to creep in, the original form will be dimmed, your
Ahamkara will increase and you will lose your way.
Bhaktha: But, Swami, some people do say
that these things are signs of progress in Dhyana!
Swami: That only means that they themselves are not practising
Dhyana properly! Besides, not knowing what Dhyana is, they delude
their disciples also by talking like this, to please them. That is
the only profit earned.
Bhaktha: Well, does it mean then that, by
means of Dhyana, we cannot see the Lord?
Swami: Why not? Certainly, it is possible. If you fix your
attention on the sublimely beautiful form of the Lord and
concentrate on that alone, you will receive His grace in that form
itself in various ways. While doing so, many a disturbance might
intervene. You should not be deluded; be on your guard, never
forget the auspicious form. Picture to yourself that all creation
is immersed in it.
Bhaktha: But really, can we not know at
anytime what stage we have reached in Dhyana?
Swami: You can identify the progress or decline of Dhyana only
when you know this is stage number so and so, this stage is such
and such etc., isn't it? The Dhyana-rupa is beginningless and
endless and so its fruition also cannot be declared, complete and
finished.
Bhaktha: Then, do you say that Dhyana is
endless?
Swami: What is generally called the end is the end of the I and
the merging of all in the one form. Dhyana has no end.
Bhaktha: How are we to understand its
stages?
Swami: You can have an idea of the stage if you examine daily how
you are able to concentrate, how far you have subdued the
wandering nature of the mind, and how deeply you taste the divine
form; that is all. The stage reached cannot be cognised. What you
receive and at what time, depends on His grace. The Sadhaka's
mission is to practise Dhyana, without deviating from the path.
The rest is all His grace. It does not depend upon the number of
days or the length of time. Some may require many births; others
may realise the goal in a few days even. It depends on each one's
Sraddha, Bhakthi and Sadhana. It cannot be calculated and reasoned
out.
Bhaktha: That means, we should not worry
about our Sadhana, its progress, its stage, possible decline etc.
Swami: Exactly. Worry about the discipline needed for the Sadhana,
but not about its fruition. The reality, the realisation of the
reality, these have no steps or limits. Do not yield to all sorts
of delusions or desires for this stage and that. Stick to the goal
and the journey. Never give up the discipline of the Sadhana. Do
not change the time of Dhyana. With one aim and unchanging
attitude, strive to attain it. That will vouchsafe the fruit. That
will bless you with the bliss. Do not be led away by what others
speak about their imaginary experiences. For you, nothing can be
as genuine as your own experience. Therefore, first attempt to
gain undeviating concentration, Ekagratha; let that be your one
aim.
Bhaktha: Dhyanam means vision of the form
of the Lord, isn't it, Swami? When such a form is actually seen,
they say it is not real and genuine! What do they mean by this?
Swami: Seeing the form of the Lord is the goal of Dhyanam. To
achieve that, is the aim. But before that goal is reached, there
are some obstacles in the way. These are to be guarded against.
Bhaktha: What kind of obstacles are they?
How are we to guard ourselves?
Swami: You have boarded a train to reach a village. You have heard
that the particular village has a station. Many a station of the
same type come during the journey and the train halts at each of
them. But just because the train halts, you do not get down at any
of them with your luggage, do you? If you get down, you will not
be reaching the place where you have to go, is it not? It is no
good, alighting at intermediate stations; for you miss your goal
and suffer many hardships, not to speak of delay. The wiser course
is to note even before starting on the journey, the names of the
intermediate stations etc., by approaching some persons who have
travelled on the same route before.
Bhaktha: Every one appears as if he is a
seasoned traveler on the route! How are we to distinguish between
those who pretend and those who know?
Swami: Of course, this has to be pondered over. Each one might
have travelled by a route of his own. Some might tell you the
details of the route, this stations etc., with the aid of maps
only. If that is so, you should not follow their directions on
that basis. Consider wherefrom they started and wherefrom you are
starting; consider the route they traversed and the route you have
to take. Moreover, it is impossible to consult those who have
travelled as far as the goal, for they will not come back; they
won't be available for consultation, at the stage where you are.
Therefore, you need not take the trouble to search and secure
persons who can tell you their own experience of the route. It is
best to take the help and the advice given by the veterans, in the
Githa, the Sastras, the Vedas and the Upanishads; rely on the
words of the Lord and follow the Upadesa of the Avathara Purushas.
Besides, there are countless great men who can guide you, as far
as they themselves have travelled, and not beyond. For, how can
they tell you things they have themselves not experienced?
Bhaktha: Well, then; how can we get the
opportunity to reach that path and attain that goal?
Swami: If they are destined for it, it won't be difficult at all.
The chance will come seeking them; you must have heard the saying.
"The man who went in search of a creeper, tripped over it on the
way". You need not doubt; this will happen.
Bhakthi: Swami, some people say that if we
do not get some visions and sounds and lights during Dhyanam, we
can take it that our Dhyanam has not progressed! Do You say that
they are wrong?
Swami: It is the image of their own idea. Perhaps they do Dhyanam
in order to get such sights and sounds! Therefore, they experience
them. They are things by which each one of them is deluded; they
do not analyse the truth underlying the visions! Really speaking,
they should not seek these impermanent delusions.
Bhaktha: Then what are we to seek, Swami?
Swami: Seek and desire the principle of everything: that which, if
known, everything is known; that which, if seen, all is seen and
understood; do not seek for the drops, in your attempt to know the
flood. When you have attained the ocean (the basis of all the
drops), you will not have delusion of the drop.
Bhaktha: Some Sadhakas picture to
themselves during Dhyanam, the Guru; is that correct?
Swami: The Guru shows the path; he teaches what is beneficial. So
he has to be shown respect and gratitude, of course. But the Guru
should not be taken to be all-powerful and all-inclusive. Of
course, the Lord is in every one, as the Atma; give each one the
status that is this due and not more.
Bhaktha: But some great men declare that
the Guru is both father and mother; that he is Brahma, Vishnu and
Maheswara, all in one.
Swami: Based on the Atma, that is correct. But such Gurus are
rare. You can speak of him as father, mother, God etc., on account
of love and regard, that is all. How can he be so in fact? As
loving as the mother, as protective as the father, you can say.
But then, what do you say of those who gave you this body and
brought you up, even before you got the Guru? First and most
important, be grateful to the mother and the father; serve them;
make them happy; respect them. Respect the Guru as the person who
shows you the path, who looks after your progress and is
interested in your welfare. Worship the Lord as the witness of
everything, everywhere, as the master of creation, preservation
and dissolution, and as the all-powerful one. Remember, you can
consider only the Lord as the universal form and as the universal
friend and protector. All others have to be treated for just their
individual status: the mother as mother, the father as father, the
Guru as Guru; in truth, these cannot be one. Ponder over this. If
you seek Atmasakshatkara, you have to install in your Dhyanam the
form of the Lord (the universal Atma) which you like most, and not
the picture of your Guru. It is not proper. The Lord is of a
status higher than the Guru, is it not? Of course, have his words
as the foundation and try to attain the origin of all things; that
will give the fruition of all efforts.
You are asked to treat the pebble as a
gem, the gem as a pebble! Of course, through compulsion and bound
by order, people may obey and accept, but can that feeling be
genuine? It is no sign of Dhyanam to have one idea outside and
another inside. Unless this conflict is resolved and there is the
same idea outside as well as inside, there will not be any
stability in Dhyanam; nor will there be any success.
Bhaktha: very good, Swami. Without knowing
matters fully, many a Sadhaka is wasting years in what he calls
Dhyanam. They observe no law or limit. For all such, Your advice
shows the reality. It will establish them in the eternal. Today I
am indeed blessed Swami.
Dialogue XVII
Top of the page
Bhaktha: I have been anxious for a long
time to ask You some things and to learn the answers from You.
Today, I have the chance. This Manas and its principle are unknown
categories. Their meanings do not get fixed and clear without
actual experience. But, Swami, this delusion of Samsara, it
overpowers us, thick and strong, like the darkness of clouds in
the rainy season. What is this mighty force that drags us along?
This is what has been bothering me. I feel persons like me should
understand these things clearly in the very beginning. Will you
kindly enlighten me?
Swami: Well, my boy. What am I to say? You are suffering from
fright, imagining a tree-stump seen in the park to be a man. That
is you are mistaking the non-dual, the full, the Adwaitha, the
Purna, which is Brahmam as a separate incomplete Jiva and...
suffering from that error. That delusion is the cause of all your
sufferings.
Bhaktha: How, then, did this delusion come
about?
Swami: You slept and so you dreamed. You slept the sleep of Ajnana
and Moha and so you dreamt this Samsara. Awake, and you will have
no more dreams. When the dream is gone, the delusion also goes.
Bhaktha: Swami, what is this ignorance?
What are its characteristics? How does it operate?
Swami: That which is attached to the body and feels, as "I" is the
Jiva. The Jiva is outward-faced; it believes all this mutable
Jagath and Samsara; it is immersed in both. When the Jiva ignores
its Adwaithaswarupa, and forgets it we call it Ajnana. Is that
clear?
Bhaktha: But, Swami, the Sastras, all of
them, say that Samsara is caused by Maya. You are now saying, it
is due to Ajnana. What is the distinction between the two?
Swami: Ajnana itself is known variously as Maya, Pradhana,
Prakriti, Avyaktha, Avidya, Thamas, etc. Hence understand this
well, Samsara is the consequence of Ajnana.
Bhaktha: How can Ajnana produce this
Samsara, I want to know, Gurudeva from you.
Swami: Know that Ajnana has two powers: Aavarnasakthi and
Vikshepasakthi, the veiling power and the projecting power. It
veils the reality and projects upon it the unreal. The
Aavaranasakthi also acts in two different ways: Asathavarana and
Abban-aavarana. When a Jnani and an Ajnani meet, though the Jnani
teaches that the Atma is one and non-dual, the Ajnani denies it;
he cannot grasp the reality so easily. Even when he hears the
truth, he has not got the faith and the steadfastness to imbibe it
and he will dismiss it with a shrug of indifference. This is the
Asath-aavarana. Now about the Abhan-aavarana. Even when the person
believes by his study of the Sastras and by the grace of
providence that there is non-dual Atma, he dismisses it as
nonexistent, carried away by cursory and superficial arguments.
Though he has Chith or the consciousness, which is aware of that
very thing which he denies, the Moha makes him declare that it is
nonexistent. This is the sinister role of Abhan-aavarana.
Bhaktha: You spoke of the Vikshepa Sakthi
also. What is meant by that?
Swami: Though you are formless, changeless and your nature is
Ananda or bliss, you are deluded into believing, feeling and
acting as if you are body, which has form, which changes and which
is the seat of pain and grief. You refer to yourself as the doer
and enjoyer; you speak of I, you, they, this, that etc., deluded
into believing variety and multiplicity, where there is only one.
This illusion projecting many on the one is called Vikshepasakthi
or Adhyaropa, superimposition.
Bhaktha: What is that?
Swami: When you superimpose the object 'silver' on
mother-of-pearl, when you see not the stump but the human form,
you have superimposed on it; or when instead of the stretch of
desert you seek a lake, you have superimposed the unreal on the
real! This is Adyaropa.
Bhaktha: Well, Baba. What is the real,
what is the unreal? Please explain that too.
Swami: The one and only, non-dual, Sath-Chith-Ananda Parabrahma is
the real. Just as the name and the Rupa of the snake are
superimposed on a rope, this Jagath (inclusive of everything from
Brahma to a blade of grass, all creatures, all inert objects like
the earth) is superimposed on the Parabrahmavastu. The Jagath is
the Avastu, the unreal, that is the superimposed thing.
Bhaktha: This superimposition of the Nama
Rupa Jagath on that Adwaithavastu, how is it caused?
Swami: By Maya.
Bhaktha: Maya means...
Swami: The Ajnanasakthi of the above said Parabrahmam...
Bhaktha: Ajnanasakthi means...
Swami: I told you, did I not? The incapacity to understand
Brahmam... though you are fundamentally Brahmam. That is Ajnana.
Bhaktha: Well, how does that Ajnana
produce all this Jagath?
Swami: The Ajnanasakthi does not allow you to see the rope;
instead it imposes the snake upon it; it makes you see the Jagath,
where there is only Brahmam.
Bhaktha: Swami, when there is only the
Adwaitha non-dual one, how did the creation of all these worlds
happen?
Swami: You have come back again to where we started from! Even if
I tell you now, it is very hard to grasp. Still, since you have
asked, I shall tell you. Listen. The Ajnanasakthi exists in the
latent form in the rope itself. That is to say, it is latent,
unmanifested in the Brahmam. This is also called Avidya. It has as
its base, Brahmam, which is Chith and Ananda. Of the two powers
that Maya has, the Aavarana and the Vikshepa, the Aavarana veils
the Brahmam and the Vikshepa makes it manifest as Manas. The Manas
creates all this panorama of name and form through the exuberance
of Vasanas.
Bhaktha: Wonderful, Swami. How wonderful
is this Prakriti! What is the distinction between the waking stage
and the dream stage?
Swami: Both are of the nature of illusion; in both, we have the
Vasanas operating. The Jagath is the stable illusion; the dream is
the unstable illusion. This is the distinction, there is no other.
Bhaktha: Swami, how can it be said that
this Jagath is unreal, when it is concrete and capable of being
experienced in a variety of ways?
Swami: It is a delusion that hides the reality from the
understanding, the Jagath is as much a superimposition on Brahmam,
as a series of pictures on the wall.
Bhaktha: Avidya is said to be Anaadi,
isn't it? Why then is it blamed so much?
Swami: The beginningless Avidya is ended when Vidya dawns. This is
only logical. Darkness is destroyed by light. Every object has
five parts: Origin, nature, function, period, result. But in the
case of the Paramatma these cannot be enunciated, though
everything that has evolved as if from Him, has them. Maya alone
has no explicable origin. It is its own proof. It is there in
Brahmam, with Brahmam: It is An-adi. No cause can be given to
explain how it manifested itself, so luxuriously. As a bubble
rises through force of its own nature, up from the water, a force
which takes the form of Nama rupa emerges from the limitless, the
full, the Paramatma. That is all. It is only the ignorant who will
speak ill of Avidya: really there is no well or ill.
Bhaktha: How can it be said the Maya has
no origin or Hethu? Just as the potter's handiwork is the Hethu
for the clay to take the form of the pot, the Sankalpa of Iswara
is essential for the force latent in Brahmam to become patent.
Swami: In the final dissolution, or Mahapralaya, Iswara too will
become nonexistent. Brahmam alone will exist, isn't it? Then, how
can the Sankalpa of Iswara be the Hethu? It cannot be. While
considering this subject, you should not take Brahma, Vishnu and
Iswara as three separate entities. These three are forms shaped by
the three Gunas. All three are one Paramatma. But, since it is
difficult to understand the working of the world, it is explained
and grasped as three; three forms engaged in three types of
actions, bearing three names. At the time of creation, dissolution
is absent. Both can coexist only beyond time. Man who exists in
time, action and cause can never hope to grasp it. When you
transcend the three Gunas, you too can attain that, but, not till
then. So, without spending time in such un-understandable
problems, engage yourself in the things you urgently need,
traversing the path, which will lead you to the goal.
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