Sai Baba tells the interviewer that He comes
from age to age, whenever strife and discord threaten to
overwhelm the world.
R.K. Karanjia, Blitz Newsmagazine:
At the outset, Swamiji, we would like to know
something about your triple incarnation -- past, present and
future -- that is, from Shirdi Sai Baba to Sathya Sai Baba and
the Prema Sai Baba to come, according to your prophecy.
Baba: First of
all, you must grasp the complete oneness of the three
incarnations of contemporary times with those of the past like
Rama and Krishna. This is a difficult task. When people cannot
understand the present, how can they comprehend the past ? Every
incarnation is full and complete in relation to the time,
environment and the task. There is no distinction between the
various appearances of God as Rama, Krishna or Sai.
Rama came to feed the roots of truth and
righteousness, Krishna followed to foster the plant of peace and
love. Now these sacred principles are in danger of wholesale
destruction by reason of human weakness under the onslaught of
evil forces. They are overcoming the good, the spiritual and the
divine in man. That is why the present Avathar has come invested
with the totality of cosmic power to save dharma (righteousness)
Why God Takes Human Form
Q: By the present Avathar, you mean Sai Baba?
Baba: Yes, I incarnate from age to age, time
to time, to save dharma from anti-dharma. Whenever strife,
discord and disharmony overwhelm the world, God incarnates in
human form to show mankind the way to love, harmony and peace.
Q: That is understandable. But skeptics wonder
why God should assume human form?
Baba: Because that is the only way to
incarnate the God within man. The Avathar takes the human form
and behaves in a human way so that humanity can feel kinship
with divinity. At the same time he rises to godly heights so
that mankind also can aspire toreach God. The realization of the
indwelling God as the motivator of life is the task for which
Avathars come in human form.
Previous Avathars like Rama and Krishna had to
destroy a few individuals who could be identified as enemies of
the godly way of life and thusrestore the dharmic path. Today,
however, wickedness has tainted so many that humanity itself
stands under thethreat of destruction. Therefore, in My present
Avathar, I have come armed with the fullness of the power of
formless God to correct mankind, raise human consciousness and
put people back on the right path of truth, righteousness, peace
and love to divinity.
Message of Triple Incarnation
Q: Why had this task to be divided into three
separate incarnations of the Shirdi, Sathya and Prema Babas?
Baba: They are not separate. I have already
mentioned the complete oneness of the three in the final
objective of the mission. I will give you an example. Take a
kilo of gur (a sweet substance). The whole of it tastes sweet.
Next break it into small pieces. Each of them is sweet. Finally
break them into small grains. You find the same sweetness in
them. So the difference is one of quantity and notquality. It is
the same with the Avathars. Their tasks and powers requisite to
them differ according to thetime, the situation and the
environment. But they belong to, and derive from, one and the
same dharma swarup or divine body.
Let us take the example of fruit. It begins
with the seed which grows into the tree and from it comes the
fruit. Work can be compared to the seed, worship to the tree and
wisdom to the fruit.
The previous Avathar, Shirdi Baba, laid the
base for secular integration and gave mankind the message [that]
duty is work. The mission of thepresent Avathar is to make
everybody realize that the same God or divinity resides in
everyone. People shouldrespect, love and help each other
irrespective of color or creed. Thus all work can become a way
of worship. Finally, Prema Sai, the third Avathar will promote
the evangel news that not only does God reside in everybody, but
everybody is God. That will be the final wisdom which will
enable every man and woman to go to God. The three Avathars
carry the triple message of work, worship and wisdom.
Man Must Develop into Mankind
Q: So that is the holy mission and divine
purpose of this triple incarnation?
Baba: To unite all mankind into one caste or
family in the establishment of the unity - that is, Atmic
realization - in every man or woman, which is the basis on which
cosmic design rests. Once this is realized, the common divine
heritage that binds man to man to God will become apparent and
love shall prevail as the guiding light of the universe.
In the first place, man has to develop into
mankind in the fullness of its integrated potential. At present
mankind as such is absent in the world. There is no synthesis
between thought, word and deed. Man today thinks one thing, says
something different, and acts quite the contrary. So what we
have is the individual man, confused, confounded and bombarded
with contradictory thoughts. What we do not see is mankind in
him motivated by good thoughts, good words and good deeds. We
have to make him realize God within him to develop a synthesis
correlating thought, word and deed.
Evangel of Love and Devotion
Once this primary lesson is taught in the
family, the school, the college, the society, the cities, the
states, the nations of the world, then man will become conscious
of the fact that all mankind belongs to one family. As Christ
preached, all are one, be alike to everyone. The vital issue is
the oneness: one caste, one class, one creed of humanity: and
this can be achieved only by the surrender of one's self or ego
to pure, selfless, universal love and devotion. Love is the
basis, the common denominator, and devotion the divine spark,
the cementing, unifying, integrating factor between man and man,
and man and God.
Let Me give you an illustration. (Baba spreads
his handkerchief on the ground between us). Here is a piece of
cloth. As you see, it is all madeof threads. Pull out the
threads separately and the cloth becomes weak. Put them together
and it is firm andstrong. It is the same with mankind. Love
binds it like the million, billion threads in cloth and devotion
reunites it with God. I, therefore embody love and use it as My
instrument to regenerate man and create the brotherhood of
mankind with the help of the latter's devotion. I always say:
Start the day with love. Fill the day with love. End the day
with love. This is the quickest way, the surest path to God.
Life is love, enjoy it;
Life is a challenge, meet it;
Life is a song, sing it;
Life is a dream, realize it;
Life is a game, play it.
Shirdi Baba Incarnate
Q: Did Shirdi Baba actually claim that he
would be born eight years after his death in 1918?
Baba: Yes, he did. This has been recorded by
Kaka Dikshit as well as a number of other devotees who were with
Q: What makes you so sure that you are Shirdi
Baba: The knowledge of My own authentic
experience, of course. Since no one who knew Shirdi Baba is
alive today, there is no evidence except My own knowledge and
experience. The very fact that I announced that I am Shirdi Baba
40 years ago, when I was only 10 and when nobody in this part of
the South had known or even heard of Shirdi Baba proves this
Dharma (Righteousness) Alone Can Save
Q: The existing situation driven by evil
forces to destruction as you have correctly analyzed it, appears
to suggest the inevitability of another Mahabharata-type (an
epic relating to the battle of Kurukshetra) war. Does this mean
that the salvation forwhich you are working can be consummated
only after a destructive war?
Baba: The evil must and shall be removed
before such a catastrophe takes place. There will be minor wars
and skirmishes, of course: these cannot be helped in the
existing state of affairs. The Mahabharata war was a different
issue altogether. Lord Krishna decreed it and, in fact, led
Arjuna to the battlefield in order to rid the world of evil men
and ungodly forces.
Today, as I told you, the evil is so
widespread that humanity itself would be destroyed in a nuclear
holocaust in the event of a world war. It is to prevent such a
catastrophe that this Avathar has come to raise human
consciousness above the existing syndrome of anger, hate,
violence and war and save the world from disaster. This can be
achieved only by the reestablishment of the brotherhood of
mankind though the Vedas, Shastras and all religions with their
evangel of dharma to liberate the human race from the chains of
karma (the cycle of birth and death). I always say: Let the
different faiths exist, let them flourish, let the glory of God
be sung in all the languages in a variety of tunes. They should
be the ideal. Respect the differences between the faiths and
recognize them as valid so far as they do not extinguish the
flame of unity.
God is Man Minus Desire
Q: From what Baba has said, it seems that
there is not much difference or dichotomy between God and man.
Am I right?
Baba: Quite right, God is man and man is God.
All of us have something of God, the divine spark, within us.
All men are divine like Myself, but with the spirit embodied in
human flesh and bone. The only difference is that they are
unaware of this Godhood. They have come into this karmic prison
through the mistakes of many lives. I have taken this mortal
form out of My own free will. They are bound to the body, while
I am free of this bondage. The main difference is that they are
shoved hither and thither by desire but I have no desire except
the supreme one to make them desireless.
Take paddy or rice by way of an illustration.
Every grain of rice is enclosed in a husk. You have to remove
the husk to get the grain ofrice. Now husk and rice, both come
from the same seed. Rice is the equivalent of God in man, while
the husk can becompared to desire which reduces God to man.
Therefore, My formula is:
LIFE + DESIRE = MAN
LIFE - DESIRE = GOD
The Way to Self-Realization
Q: In what way can life without desire make
Gods of men?
Baba: Life without desire means the
realization of the pure, genuine self that is Atma. Bound to
desire, the self degenerates intoselfishness. Atma turns into
ego. The way of self-realization is to cleanse the self of this
ego of selfishness. Then youreach a state of consciousness
beyond the mind or intellect, revealing the true self that is
God. The mind is like a cloth that covers andstifles
consciousness, the threads of which are desires. If we give up
the desires, the threads fall and the clothdisappears, revealing
our true nature. That is what the Vedanta (epic of ancient
wisdom and knowledge) means when it enjoins that one must get
rid of the ego to realize oneself.
Q: You mean that the mind of man as such
creates the block between man and God?
Baba: Yes. One must make a distinction between
the mind that is the ego, and the real self that is
consciousness. The latter helps us to cross the frontiers of the
ego-mind and become aware of oneself as the witness of truth.
Normally the scientist of the mind looks outside to what can be
perceived by the senses existing in the world of the mind to
ask: What is this? The scientist of consciousness, on the other
hand, always looks inside to that which is beyond the senses or
the grasp of the mind to ask: What is that?
One has, therefore, to rise beyond the mind to
consciousness to achieve self-realization. To gain the infinite,
universal Atma, the embodied selfmust break out of the puny,
finite little prison of individuality. Desire belongs to the
senses, the brain, the mind; once you become free of it, you
realize the self, Atma, consciousness, enlightenment, and become
one with the cosmic power. Self realization is God-realization.
Thus man reaches God.
Q: What is the significance of the vibuthi
(holy ash) and the trinkets that you materialize and give to
people? Is there any need for a Godman to demonstrate such
miracles which any magician can conjure?
Baba: So far as I am concerned this is
evidence of My divinity. It is not by any means an exhibition of
divinity. All performances of magic, asyou know are done for the
sake of income. These are tricks of the magicians trade. They
constitute a kind oflegalized cheating, the transfer of an
object from one place to another by a trick of the hand which
goes unnoticed. They involve no siddhi (occult power) or
What I do is quite a different act of
creation. It is neither magic, nor is it siddhi power either.
For one thing, I seek no return. For another, I do not cheat
people by transferring objects, but I create them. Again, I do
so not because of any need ordesire of exhibition of My powers.
For Me this is a kind of calling card to convince people of My
love for them and secure their devotion in return. Since love is
formless, I do materialization as evidence of My love. It is
merely a symbol.
Still I do not understand why you should
materialize rings, bracelets, watches and those kind of
Talisman of Protection
Baba: Most people desire talismans as symbolic
of My protection. So I provide them. When they are in trouble
they feel the grip of the ring, bracelet or watch to remember Me
and call Me to their rescue so that I can help them. On the
other hand, if I give them something they cannot wear, they are
likely to store it and forget about it.
The main thing is that these trinkets or
talismans, by whatever name you call them, give people a sense
of security and protection they need in times of troubles or
crises and create a symbolic link covering the long distances
between them and Myself. When the devotees need Me, these
objects flash the message as if by wireless and I instantly come
to their rescue.
Q: I am sorry to be persistent, Swamiji, but
isn't the gift of an Omega or HMT watch an act of cheating the
company or breach of its patent?
Baba: I assure you there is no such thing. It
would be cheating the company or breaching the patent if it were
a case of transfer of the watch from one place to the other. But
I do not transfer; I totally create. Whatever I will, instantly
materializes. I know of no company that has complained about any
breach of patent.
Significance of Vibuthi (Holy Ash)
Q: What about vibuthi materialized by you? We
would like to know its relevance because your critics are trying
to discredit you by sending around magicians who produce exact
replicas of vibuthi.
Baba: What I materialize is a manifestation of
divinity with a potent significance as well as symbolism. It is
symbolic of the cosmic, immortaland infinite nature of all forms
of God, Atma or the spirit -- that is, what is left when
everything worldly, transient and changeable has burnt away.
I have spoken to you of the imperative of a
desireless life. After Shiva had burnt the God of desire, Kama,
into a heap of ashes, he adorned himself with the ash to shine
as the conqueror of desire. When Kama was destroyed, Prema
reigned as the Goddess of love. Such is the significance of ash.
In the first place, it is symbolic of the
life-death cycle in which everything ultimately reduces itself
to ash. "For dust thou art, and unto dust shall thou returnest."
Ash or dust is the final condition of things. It cannot undergo
any further change. In the spiritual context, it constitutes a
warning to the receiver to give up desire, to burn all passions,
attachments and temptations, and makes one pure in thought, word
It is in order to press home this lesson that
I materialize ash for those who come to Me with love and
devotion. Like the other materializations, it also acts as a
talisman, healing the sick and giving protection to those who
need it. It is the symbol ofdivinity, quite different from the
magician's trickery mentioned by you.
Miracles of Healing
Q: You are believed to have performed
miraculous cures to the extent of resurrecting the dead. There
are cases where you reportedly saved peoplefrom drowning and
other accidents in distant places. Medical experts have attested
to remote controlledsurgical operations performed by you. How do
you manage these?
Baba: By My own sankalpa -- that is, divine
will and power. As an Avathar, this power is intrinsic,
inherent, total and natural to My will anddecision. I need no
mantra (mystical formula), no sadhana (spiritual practice), no
tantra (sacred writings) andno yantra (pilgrimage) to perform
the so-called miracles which are natural to My state. My powers
are simply the expression or assertion of the reality of
goodness which merges Me with everything, everywhere, at all
times and places. The miracles belong to the boundless power of
Now coming to the main points of your
question, this healing phenomena has a dual aspect. I can cure,
save, even resurrect people provided theyare in a spiritually
receptive condition. It is like the positive and negative
currents of electricity. My capacity to heal can be compared to
the positive current. Your devotion to Me is like the negative
current. Once the two come together, the devotion provides what
is called the miracle of healing.
It is man's mind that is really responsible
for his illness or health. He himself is the cause or motivator
of either. So when it comes tohealing or curing, the necessary
faith has to be created within his mind for the purpose. All I
do is invest himwith the confidence, will and power to cure
himself. It is My abounding love reciprocated by the intensity
of the devotee's faith in Me that produce the desired result.
Not Siddhis or Magical Tricks
Q: So these are not siddhic powers or magical
tricks, as your critics suggest?
Baba: They are neither magical tricks nor
siddhic (occult) powers, which can come to everybody with the
appropriate discipline and yoga exercises, but My powers to
protect, heal and save people and materialize objects originate
in God and can be used only by an Avathar. They are in no way
designed, disciplined or developed, but flow from cosmic power.
Q: Some say that you command invisible spirits
which can transfer objects from one place to another on your
Baba: There is no need for Me to command
invisible spirits since My own divine will materializes the
objects. I am everything, everywhere, omniscient, omnipotent and
omnipresent; and so whatever I will, instantly happens. Like the
qualities of truth, love and peace, these are things that
generate the atmic (godly) or cosmic forces behind the universe.
Q: Your followers at home as well as abroad
claim positive evidence of the presence of Baba in their
innermost hearts. Some have written of you as their in-dwelling
God. What is the explanation of this phenomenon?
The In-Dwelling God
Baba: This is the grace begotten of My love
for them reciprocated by their devotion. After all, as I
repeatedly say, we all belong to the samedivine principle. The
godliness which is present in everybody in the form of a little
spark is present in Me asthe full flame, and it is My mission to
develop every little spark of God in everyone to the fullness of
the divine flame.
The first imperative of this development is
that the receiver of the grace also provides from his or her
side the devotion necessary to the consummation. Those who carry
the presence of Baba in their hearts like an in-dwelling God
belong to these kinds of devotees. They come to Me, see Me and
hear Me, experience My love for them and receive it with
devotion. Thus, they become part of Me and My divinity.
To the doubting or confused ones, I give this
illustration. Those who want to secure pearls from the sea have
to dive deep to fetch them. It doesnot help them to dabble among
the shallow waves near the shore and say that the sea has no
pearls and allstories about them are false. Likewise, if a
person wants to secure the love and grace of this Avathar, he
must also dive deep and get submerged in Sai Baba. Then, only,
will he become one with Me and carry Me in his innermost heart.
Q: The critics of Swamiji ask why Sai Baba
does not help people in distress by bringing rains in times of
drought or creating food where there isfamine by means of his
sankalpa shakti (divine power, universal energy). Cannot an
Avathar help humanity tocontrol the natural forces and prevent
calamities like earthquakes, floods, droughts, famine and
Baba: This is precisely what I am doing by
incarnating the in-dwelling God in man to overcome such
calamities. There are two ways in which an Avathar can help
people: an instant solution as against a long term one.
Any instant solution would go against the
fundamental quality of nature itself as well against the karmic
law of cause and effect. Most peoplelive in the material world
of their desires and egos, which is governed by this law. They
reap the fruits oftheir actions. This brings about their
evolution or devolution. If the Avathar intervenes to instantly
solve their problems, it would stop all action, development,
even evolution. This solution can be ruled out because it
totally negates the natural laws.
The other and more effective alternative
presents a long-term solution whereby the Avathar leads the
people themselves to a higher level ofconsciousness to enable
them to understand the truth of spiritual laws so that they may
turn towards righteousnessand steadfastly work for better
conditions. This will relate them back to nature and the karmic
law of causation. This would then transcend the cycle of cause
and effect in which today they are involved as victims and
thereby command and control the natural forces to be able to
avert the calamities you mention.
Raising Man to God
Q: You mean that you are presently raising the
consciousness of mankind to a godlike condition to enable them
to command their own destiny?
Baba: Exactly. They would become shareholders
of My sankalpa shakti (divine power, universal energy). I have
to work through them, rouse thein-dwelling God in them and
evolve them to a higher reality in order to enable them to
master the natural law andforces. If I cure everything
instantly, leaving the people at their present levels of
consciousness, they would soon mess up things and be at one
another's throats again with the result that the same chaotic
situation would develop in the world.
Suffering and misery are the inescapable acts
of the cosmic drama. God does not decree these calamities but
man invites them by way ofretribution for his own evil deeds.
This is corrective punishment which induces mankind to give up
the wrong path andreturn to the right path so that he may
experience the godlike condition of sat-chit-ananda -- that is,
an existence of wisdom and bliss. All this is part of the grand
synthesis in which the negatives serve to glorify the positives.
Thus death glorifies immortality, ignorance glorifies wisdom,
misery glorifies bliss, night glorifies dawn.
So, finally, if the Avathar brings the
calamities mentioned by you to an immediate end, which I can do,
and do, when there is a great need, thewhole drama of creation
with its karmic (universal, inescapable duty) law will collapse.
Remember, thesecalamities occur not because of what God has made
of man but really because of what man has made of man.
Therefore, man has to be unmade and remade with his ego
destroyed and replaced by a transcendent consciousness so that
he may rise above the karmic to command.
Q: Have you succeeded in bringing about this
synthesis, Swamiji, particularly with the wealthy and powerful
Fusion of Rich with Poor
Baba: I have not reached all of them as a
class, but to the extent that I am able to contact them
individually, the results are encouraging. Thewealthy and
powerful, of course, present a difficult problem in the matter
of transformation. They need aspecial approach. The poor people,
on the other hand, are very cooperative. They understand,
appreciate and help My plans and ideas.
Q: What is the solution to this escalating
conflict between wealth and power on one side, and poverty and
weakness on the other?
Baba: The transformation of both into a single
cooperative brotherhood on terms of equality without competition
or conflict. This can result only from truth and love. The main
issue is to fuse the two classes into one single class. The
problem, however, is one of bringing them together on a common
base or platform. Wealthy people live isolated in a certain
state or condition. The poor also are similarly isolated in
another state or condition. How do we bring them together?
I do so in many subtle ways by breaking the
barriers of wealth and poverty and creating a feeling of
equality and oneness between the poor and the rich. In this
ashram (spiritual community) you find them living and working
together, even performing menial labor on terms of complete
equality. Here there are no distinctions whatever, nor any
special facilities for the rich. They live, eat, work, worship
and sleep like the poor. All live like a community of workers to
share the common austerities of the ashram.
Peace of Mind Beyond Wealth
Despite our rigorous discipline,
industrialists and businessmen want to come here. Why? Because
they secure peace of mind beyond physical comfort which no
wealth or power on earth can purchase or provide.
Thus we open to them a wonderful new world of
spiritual treasures and they must sacrifice material wants and
comforts. My mission is to show them the way to peace of mind
which everybody, rich and poor alike, desires. In that process
of spiritual evolution, the seeker learns that this blissful
state cannot be purchased for money in a shop or gifted to one
by anybody but oneself. It can come only from the universal
source of divinity, the in-dwelling God that embraces poor and
rich alike. This concept creates a common fellowship, a brother
hood of give and take between the wealthy and the poor. Those
who have too much are obliged to give up their unnecessary
wants, while those who have too little get their needs
After all, in spiritual terms, all mankind
belongs to one and the same class, caste or religion. The divine
principles in each and all of them derive from one and the same
God. This fundamental oneness has to be made manifest to them
through direct contact with spiritual realities and the
persuasive expanding power of love, till they become part of the
universal religion of work, worship and wisdom.
Material Wealth is Spiritual Poverty
Q: All this would be simple and welcome
evangel for the poor since they lose nothing and gain everything
from your philosophy, but what about the rich who have to lose
all if they followed it?
Baba: That is the crux of the problem. They
simply have to lose, surrender, submerge their false values if
they want My grace. So long as peoplecontinue to be slaves of
materialistic definitions of wealth and poverty, there can be no
solution. I, therefore, try to convert their minds and hearts to
spiritual values and truths.
After all, who is the richest man? One who has
the largest wants and, therefore, troubles and worries? Or one
who is satisfied with the barestnecessities of life and,
therefore, is more or less desireless and comparatively happy?
Judged from thiscriterion of happiness, the poor are spiritually
rich but the rich are spiritually poor. It is not material but
spiritual satisfaction that ultimately makes life worth living.
As I have said before, life without desire
brings divinity to man; and those who seek My grace must shed
desire and greed. Riches provide a fatal temptation. They are
the source and cause of human bondage. The desire to raise the
standard of life can never be satisfied. It leads to
multiplication of wants and consequent troubles and
No Grace Without Sacrifice
The solution lies in our emphasis on the
quality as against the standard of life, on high thinking and
lowly living. The mind is the horse, thebody the cart: to
achieve mental peace, you must put the horse of high thinking
before the cart of physicalcomfort.
Q: This is sound philosophy but how do you
implement it in action?
Baba: The rich as well as the poor come to Sai
Baba to seek love, peace and liberation from their problems and
troubles. My prescription to themis absolute selflessness and
desirelessness. To the poor, this is a natural state or
condition. So My loveflows to them to embrace their devotion.
Thus they obtain My grace.
The rich, on the other hand, cannot secure
this grace without surrendering their materialistic outlook and
selfish attachments. So it becomes obligatory for them to
sacrifice material greed to receive spiritual grace. I tell
Ego lives by getting and forgetting,
Love lives by giving and forgiving.
In this way, I change their mental attitude. I
transform their monkey-minds into loving, giving and forgiving
Q: Monkey-minds, Baba -- what do you mean?
Baba: It is a kind of mentality that is used
by peasants to trap and destroy monkeys. When the peasant wants
to catch a monkey, he uses a big pot with a narrow mouth as a
trap. Inside the pot he puts edibles which the monkey loves. The
monkey finds the pot and puts its paws inside to grasp as much
of the stuff as it can hold. Once it does so, it is unable to
pull out its paws from the small mouthof the pot. It imagines
that someone inside the pot is holding its paws, so it struggles
and attempts to runaway with the pot, only to fail and get
trapped. No one is holding the monkey; it has trapped itself
because of its greed. If only it lets the stuff in its paws go,
it will be free of bondage.
In the same way I tell rich people, man is
tempted by the wealth, pleasures and desires of the world. When
he gets lost in such attachment andsuffers the consequences of
greed, he thinks that something is binding him down, capturing
him, destroying him. The moment he gives up material wealth and
desires, he will be free. I make him realize his bondage to the
monkey-mind and liberate himself.
Baba's Spiritual Socialism
Q: Baba seems to be prescribing a kind of
spiritual socialism based on the conversion of wealth into a
trusteeship for the removal of poverty.
Baba: Yes, a trusteeship based on love,
cooperation and brotherhood. What else can one do? The change
must evolve from the heart; it cannot beimposed from outside.
All materialist doctrines have failed to bring about any real
transformation. There is noequality anywhere. Only spiritual
transformation into a desireless mentality can put through the
imperative revolution in human consciousness from which alone
the desired changes can accrue.
We need to transform society from false to
real values. We have to convince people that the ideal of a high
standard of life is wrong. It must bereplaced with a high level
of living and thinking on the basis of humility, morality,
compassion anddetachment, as against the existing greed for
competitive luxury and conspicuous consumption. People have to
be convinced that the only way to rouse the latent divinity in
them is to master desires and conquer greed for pleasure and
luxury instead of being a slave to these false materialistic
Sai Path to Dharma (Righteousness)
Q: Then I take it that the various educational
and social service organizations run by Baba -- some 3,000 in
all -- are designed to create the cadres necessary for bringing
about the desired socioeconomic change by means of love and
Baba: They are designed to put the new
generation on the Sai path of truth, righteousness, peace, love
and nonviolence. Their motto -- work is worship and duty is God
-- seeks to bring in the new social order related to Sathya --
that is, truth, and dharma -- namely, right action.
Q: India has been described as a rich country
of poor people. We have the wealth of the whole world locked up
in the bosom of our good earth. And yet the people remain
economically poor and backward. Have you any solution to
rehabilitate our economy?
Baba: Your analysis is correct. The solution
to the problem you have posed lies in hard work and increased
production on a cooperative basis. Toachieve this, one has to
rid people of the disease of individuality, greed and
selfishness. Every individualmust be taught to think and work in
the broader concept of society and its needs. Once that is done,
there will be less talk and more work.
Here again, it is the spiritual path that can
save this country and the world from the wrongs of a
materialistic order. What we need is asynthesis of the spiritual
and material aspects of life. That will provide man with the
social conscience andcooperative spirit imperative to the
creation of national wealth and prosperity through selfless,
Q: Very good counsel, Swamiji - but the
trouble is that all the wealth created by labor appears to find
its way into the pockets of a rich and powerful minority. Have
you a spiritual prescription for this inequality?
Desire must be equalized
Baba: There is no doubt that the distribution
is not taking place properly. The existing doctrines of
equality, socialism, etc., have not succeeded in achieving
equality in distribution of wealth and property. The difficulty
is that you equalize, wealth, land and property by legalization,
but can the law bring about equality in the desires of the
people? This requires the healing touch of spiritualism.
To begin with, one has to cure desire and its
evil consequences. We must persuade the rich that desire and its
fulfillment in materialistic wants is an aspect of the
monkey-mind which can only harm them and put them under bondage.
That alone will solve the problem of inequality and
The rich will give up their extravagant wants,
the poor will get what they need and a little more; and this
process will bring about more equitable distribution.
Q: To conclude this section, Swamiji, would
you sum up the main causes of India's social and economic
Baba: From a purely material viewpoint, it is
a question of supply and demand. Because of the overpowering
material values of our society, the demand is growing larger and
larger, while the supply remains the same or decreases. The
solution, obviously, is to increase the supply or decrease the
demand. Then, of course, there is the problem of growing
population. This triangular issue of economic imbalance needs to
be spiritualised if an effective solution is to be found.
Less Luggage : Better Journey
It is here that our insistence on a desireless
life, in which human wants are reduced to the minimum needs,
comes to the rescue as the onlypossible way of restoring the
social and economic balance. Curb your desires, reduce your
wants, live in spiritualausterity, and the available material
will be sufficient for all humanity. More than that, the
tensions of a competitive socioeconomic system will be dissolved
and peace of mind will be restored.
Life is like a journey in a vehicle between
birth and death. The body is the vehicle in which you are
motoring to death. The less luggage youcarry the better. Why
encumber yourself with worldly riches and material comforts,
when you may have to changeyour course or even meet with some
dislocation or accident and, in any case, at the end of the
journey you will have to leave behind all your possessions
accept your Atma? Would it not be better to attend to the
immortal spirit rather than waste time which is running out on
gaining wealth and securing comforts?
This is the logic of spiritualism with which I
seek to change the attitude of people.
Why no Pumpkins or Cucumbers
Q: Baba has already clarified most of the
issues raised by Dr. Narasimhiah and other critics. Some,
however, remain unanswered. Narasimhiah askswhy you do not
materialize a pumpkin or a cucumber or a watch with a distinct
mark to prove that it is yourcreation and not a transfer of
somebody else's manufacture?
Baba: Pumpkins and cucumbers can be
materialized as easily as rings or objects. But these are
perishable objects and the whole point of materialization, as I
have already explained, lies in their permanence. That is why
rings or watches become more serviceable as talismans or means
of contact and communication, between the Avathar and his
The point they are trying to make is that big
objects like pumpkins cannot be transferred while small ones
like rings can be. But as I have repeatedly said, I do not
transfer things by a sleight-of-hand. I create them to be
Now coming to your question about a ring or
watch with a distinct mark to prove that it is My own creation,
would you like Me to materialize something for you?
Miracle of OM Ring
Q: Yes, Swamiji, I certainly would.
Baba waved his hand in the air to produce a
silver ring bearing the inscription OM in the centre with Sai
Ram marks on the sides and held My right hand to gently put it
on the third finger. It was an exact fit and it was precisely
what I wanted from Baba.
Q: Thank you, Baba, you have answered the
question beautifully. Now to Narasimhiah's unanswered point
regarding the bogus Sai Krishna or Pandavapura exposed by his
committee as a fraud and a cheat. He alleges that the boy had
No Contact with Fake Boy
Baba: I can assure you there is absolutely no
connection between him and Myself. His people have several times
attempted to arrange a meeting between us, but we have refused
their requests. Of course, thousands of people, as you saw this
morning, come here for darshan. There are others also who
masquerade as My disciples or make money using My name. As this
happens not only here but in other statesand even abroad, we
cannot do anything about it. They expose themselves sooner or
later, as did this boy. Ihave absolutely no connection or
relationship with such people.
Q: The Narasimhiah Committee wanted to
investigate your miracles scientifically under controlled
conditions, as they put it. You rejected the proposal. Would you
like to comment on this controversy?
Baba: How can science which is bound to a
physical and materialist outlook investigate transcendental
phenomena beyond its scope, reach orcomprehension? This is a
fallacy on the face of it. One belongs to the material and the
other to a spiritual plane. Science must confine its inquiry
only to things belonging to the human senses, while spiritualism
transcends the senses. If you want tounderstand the nature of
spiritual power you can do so only through the path of
spirituality and not science. Whatscience has been able to
unravel is merely a fraction of the cosmic phenomena; it tends,
however, to exaggerate its contribution.
Q: That is true, Swamiji, but science is
developing all the time so that the metaphysics of yesterday
become the physics of today.
Glow-Worm in Sunlight
Baba: Quite right, but it is still blind to
the vast and invisible world of consciousness. The very fact
that science is changing all the timeproves its incapacity to
investigate the ultimate and absolute truth. Some time ago,
scientists maintained thatthe atom cannot be broken, but
recently they succeeded in breaking it. They are still ignorant
about the realities of the pranic force behind the atom, which
is the least of its components.
Science is merely a glow-worm in the light and
splendor of the sun. It is true that it can research, discover
and gather a lot of informationabout nature and its material
functions and use it for the development of worldly things.
Spiritualism, on theother hand, reigns over the cosmic field
where science has no place. That is why some discoveries of
science are useful while others can be disastrous.
As I have said before, Dr Narasimhiah and his
group are like the Telugu men who go to the cinema to see a
Tamil film. They will see only thedancing, the fighting and
violence, the heroes and villains, the star with a beautiful
face and these kinds ofsuperficial things, but they will lose
the subtler aspects such as the music and the poetry, the plot,
the dialogue, the jokes and the like.
Wrong Spirit and Approach
However, as I have said again and again, those
who want to understand Me are welcome here. It is the spirit of
the investigation that isimportant. Foreign parapsychologists
have come here and examined Me in such a positive and
constructive spirit. Youhave seen their reports. They do not
write letters or make public demands.
Narasimhiah's approach was improper; that is
why I rejected it. If it were not so, he would have been
welcome. I do not call people here so that they may bow to a
God. I want them to come, see, hear, study, observe, experience
and realize Baba. Then only, they will understand Me and
appreciate the Avathar.
Q: Dr. Narasimhiah maintains that according to
science, "Nothing can be created out of nothing." You have
evidently negated this lawof science with a transcendental
formula for controlling cosmic energy and producing paranormal
power. Can you explainthis mystery?
"What I Will, Happens"
Baba: The formula that nothing can be created
out of nothing is appropriate to the limited field and
dimensions of science. It does not at allapply to the
transcendental field and dimensions of spirituality. In the
latter field, anything can be createdby the supreme will. All
that exists can be made to disappear and what does not exist can
be made to appear.
Our history and tradition, scripture as well
as literature, are full of such incidents which they call
miracles. The material laws and formulas simply do not apply to
divinity. For Me this is not a matter of any mystery or
mystique. What I will, happens: what I order, materializes.
Q: The Vice-Chancellor appears to ridicule
your statement that "There is God in us all." He asks: "Is this
not pure escapism? How can God be so unsure of Himself?" Your
God Exists in Everybody
Baba: His questions contradict the very basis
of Indian philosophy as well as that of most religions. All our
scriptures assert that God ispresent in everyone. According to
Vivekananda, "God is present in all." The only thing that is
manifest and commonto the whole world and, in fact, governs and
directs the entire universe, is divinity. Nothing else really
exists except divinity.
Mine is no escapism but the fundamental and
eternal truth. I say so not because I am unsure of My own
divinity. It is My confidence in its absolute and total
authenticity that makes Me affirm this fact. It is the
scientists who are so unsure of themselves that they indulge in
For example, they say that the moon is
lifeless. Simultaneously, they maintain that all matter consists
of moving atoms. Now isn't the moon also a conglomerate of the
same moving atoms? Then how can it be lifeless? There is no
matter which does not consist of atoms, electrons, neutrons and
protons, which are also constantly moving. This energy, too, is
So also there is no human being in whom there
is no divinity. To say there is no God in man is like saying
that there is no atom in the moon orany large lump of matter.
The omnipresence of God has been described in our ancient texts
as: "ano baniyammahatoo maniyam" (God is a small particle in the
smallest of particles and a large mass in the largest of
masses). In this context, how can one say that God is not in
No Preference for Wealth and Power
Q: Another pertinent issue raised by your
critics is that you show a preference for wealthy and powerful
people as opposed to the poor and week in the matter of divine
gifts, miracle cures and individual darshans. Is this true? If
Baba: This is wrong. I never see or make any
distinction between the rich and the poor. I only look at them
from the viewpoint of their devotion, their desires, the
sacrifice they are willing to make and their troubles. You were
here this morning and sawhundreds of people, a few rich, the
majority poor. Did you find Me making any distinction? All those
I brought with Me to this room were poor and weak, sick or
In My view, those who appear to the world as
wealthy or powerful persons really bring to Me their troubled
hearts and sick minds. I cure them by asking them to surrender
material wealth and power to spiritual peace and grace.
Q: From what Baba has hitherto said, it
appears that your mission is to enable mankind to rediscover and
incarnate its lost godliness. Am I right?
Baba: You are right. When man turns inward to
realize his true self, then God will become manifest to him.
Self-realization is God-realization. In simple words, it is the
realization that you are not just a body and mind with physical
organs, but there is within you a self - the Atma that is God -
distinct from these perishable things. This self is omnipotent,
omnipresent and omniscient. The comprehension of this truth puts
you on the correct path to God-realization.
Terror of Nuclear War
Q: So your objective can be summed up as a
brotherhood of humanity to be achieved through the doctrine of
Baba: Yes, what else can save the world from
thermonuclear fires? Everything points to the terror of
conflagration coming; and My mission is to preempt the fires by
reestablishing dharma and the spiritual law of one God, one
religion, one language embracing one humanity.
I preach only one religion of love for all,
which alone can integrate the human race into a brotherhood of
man under the fatherhood of God. I know only one language of the
heart beyond the mind or the intellect which relates man to man
and mankind to God, thereby creating mutual understanding,
cooperation and community life in peace and harmony. On this
basis I want to build one humanity withoutany religious, caste
or other barriers in a universal empire of love which would
enable My devotees to feel thewhole world as their family.
Q: Well said, Baba -- but wouldn't this dharma
with its Hindu orientation conflict with the established
Baba: No, it will not do anything of the kind
because My objective is the establishment of sanathana dharma,
which believes in one God aspropitiated by the founders of all
religions. So none has to give up his religion or deity, but
through them worshipthe one God in all. I have come not to
disturb or destroy but to confirm and vindicate everyone in his
Dharmic Way to Peace
Q: But how will that prevent a nuclear
Baba: By removing all causes, sources,
barriers and provocations of class, caste, creed, color and
race, and replacing the existing hate and violence with love and
non-violence. I expect to provide humanity with an evangel of
peaceful cooperation to replace the present escalation to death
R.K.Karanjia: Thank you, Swamiji. I am all the
more grateful to you because I really did not expect you to
answer the whole long list of my questions.