The Extended Interview given by Bhagawan Sri
Sathya Sai Baba to the Senior Editor, Sri R.K. Karanjia of Blitz
News Magazine in September of 1976:
Sai Baba tells the interviewer that He comes from age to age,
whenever strife and discord threaten to overwhelm the world.
At the outset, Swamiji, we would like to
know something about your triple incarnation -- past, present and
future -- that is, from Shirdi Sai Baba to Sathya Sai Baba and the
Prema Sai Baba to come, according to your prophecy.
First of all, you must grasp the complete
oneness of the three incarnations of contemporary times with those
of the past like Rama and Krishna. This is a difficult task. When
people cannot understand the present, how can they comprehend the
past ? Every incarnation is full and complete in relation to the
time, environment and the task. There is no distinction between
the various appearances of God as Rama, Krishna or Sai.
Rama came to feed the roots of truth and
righteousness, Krishna followed to foster the plant of peace and
love. Now these sacred principles are in danger of wholesale
destruction by reason of human weakness under the onslaught of
evil forces. They are overcoming the good, the spiritual and the
divine in man. That is why the present Avathar has come invested
with the totality of cosmic power to save dharma (righteousness)
By the present Avathar, you mean Sai Baba?
Yes, I incarnate from age to age, time to time,
to save dharma from anti-dharma. Whenever strife, discord and
disharmony overwhelm the world, God incarnates in human form to
show mankind the way to love, harmony and peace.
understandable. But skeptics wonder why God should assume human
Because that is the only way to incarnate the
God within man. The Avathar takes the human form and behaves in a
human way so that humanity can feel kinship with divinity. At the
same time he rises to godly heights so that mankind also can
aspire to reach God. The realization of the indwelling God as the
motivator of life is the task for which Avathars come in human
Previous Avathars like Rama and Krishna had to
destroy a few individuals who could be identified as enemies of
the godly way of life and thus restore the dharmic path. Today,
however, wickedness has tainted so many that humanity itself
stands under the threat of destruction. Therefore, in My present
Avathar, I have come armed with the fullness of the power of
formless God to correct mankind, raise human consciousness and put
people back on the right path of truth, righteousness, peace and
love to divinity.
Why had this task to be divided into
three separate incarnations of the Shirdi, Sathya and Prema Babas?
They are not separate. I have already mentioned
the complete oneness of the three in the final objective of the
mission. I will give you an example. Take a kilo of gur (a sweet
substance). The whole of it tastes sweet. Next break it into small
pieces. Each of them is sweet. Finally break them into small
grains. You find the same sweetness in them. So the difference is
one of quantity and not quality. It is the same with the Avathars.
Their tasks and powers requisite to them differ according to the
time, the situation and the environment. But they belong to, and
derive from, one and the same dharma swarup or divine body.
Let us take the
example of fruit. It begins with the seed which grows into the
tree and from it comes the fruit. Work can be compared to the
seed, worship to the tree and wisdom to the fruit.
The previous Avathar, Shirdi Baba, laid the
base for secular integration and gave mankind the message [that]
duty is work. The mission of the present Avathar is to make
everybody realize that the same God or divinity resides in
everyone. People should respect, love and help each other
irrespective of color or creed. Thus all work can become a way of
worship. Finally, Prema Sai, the third Avathar will promote the
evangel news that not only does God reside in everybody, but
everybody is God. That will be the final wisdom which will enable
every man and woman to go to God. The three Avathars carry the
triple message of work, worship and wisdom.
So that is the holy mission and divine
purpose of this triple incarnation?
To unite all mankind into one caste or family
in the establishment of the unity - that is, Atmic realization -
in every man or woman, which is the basis on which cosmic design
rests. Once this is realized, the common divine heritage that
binds man to man to God will become apparent and love shall
prevail as the guiding light of the universe.
In the first place, man has to develop into
mankind in the fullness of its integrated potential. At present
mankind as such is absent in the world. There is no synthesis
between thought, word and deed. Man today thinks one thing, says
something different, and acts quite the contrary. So what we have
is the individual man, confused, confounded and bombarded with
contradictory thoughts. What we do not see is mankind in him
motivated by good thoughts, good words and good deeds. We have to
make him realize God within him to develop a synthesis correlating
thought, word and deed.
Once this primary lesson is taught in the
family, the school, the college, the society, the cities, the
states, the nations of the world, then man will become conscious
of the fact that all mankind belongs to one family. As Christ
preached, all are one, be alike to everyone. The vital issue is
the oneness: one caste, one class, one creed of humanity: and this
can be achieved only by the surrender of one's self or ego to
pure, selfless, universal love and devotion. Love is the basis,
the common denominator, and devotion the divine spark, the
cementing, unifying, integrating factor between man and man, and
man and God.
Let Me give you an illustration. (Baba spreads
his handkerchief on the ground between us). Here is a piece of
cloth. As you see, it is all made of threads. Pull out the threads
separately and the cloth becomes weak. Put them together and it is
firm andstrong. It is the same with mankind. Love binds it like
the million, billion threads in cloth and devotion reunites it
with God. I, therefore embody love and use it as My instrument to
regenerate man and create the brotherhood of mankind with the help
of the latter's devotion. I always say: Start the day with love.
Fill the day with love. End the day with love. This is the
quickest way, the surest path to God.
Life is love, enjoy it;
Life is a challenge, meet it;
Life is a song, sing it;
Life is a dream, realize it;
Life is a game, play it.
Did Shirdi Baba actually claim that he
would be born eight years after his death in 1918?
Yes, he did. This has been recorded by Kaka
Dikshit as well as a number of other devotees who were with Shirdi
What makes you so sure that you are
Shirdi Baba incarnate?
The knowledge of My own authentic experience,
of course. Since no one who knew Shirdi Baba is alive today, there
is no evidence except My own knowledge and experience. The very
fact that I announced that I am Shirdi Baba 40 years ago, when I
was only 10 and when nobody in this part of the South had known or
even heard of Shirdi Baba proves this fact.
The existing situation driven by evil
forces to destruction as you have correctly analyzed it, appears
to suggest the inevitability of another Mahabharata-type (an epic
relating to the battle of Kurukshetra) war. Does this mean that
the salvation for which you are working can be consummated only
after a destructive war?
The evil must and shall be removed before such
a catastrophe takes place. There will be minor wars and
skirmishes, of course: these cannot be helped in the existing
state of affairs. The Mahabharata war was a different issue
altogether. Lord Krishna decreed it and, in fact, led Arjuna to
the battlefield in order to rid the world of evil men and ungodly
Today, as I told you, the evil is so widespread
that humanity itself would be destroyed in a nuclear holocaust in
the event of a world war. It is to prevent such a catastrophe that
this Avathar has come to raise human consciousness above the
existing syndrome of anger, hate, violence and war and save the
world from disaster. This can be achieved only by the
reestablishment of the brotherhood of mankind though the Vedas,
Shastras and all religions with their evangel of dharma to
liberate the human race from the chains of karma (the cycle of
birth and death). I always say: Let the different faiths exist,
let them flourish, let the glory of God be sung in all the
languages in a variety of tunes. They should be the ideal. Respect
the differences between the faiths and recognize them as valid so
far as they do not extinguish the flame of unity.
From what Baba has said, it seems that
there is not much difference or dichotomy between God and man. Am
Quite right, God is man and man is God. All of
us have something of God, the divine spark, within us. All men are
divine like Myself, but with the spirit embodied in human flesh
and bone. The only difference is that they are unaware of this
Godhood. They have come into this karmic prison through the
mistakes of many lives. I have taken this mortal form out of My
own free will. They are bound to the body, while I am free of this
bondage. The main difference is that they are shoved hither and
thither by desire but I have no desire except the supreme one to
make them desireless.
Take paddy or rice by way of an illustration.
Every grain of rice is enclosed in a husk. You have to remove the
husk to get the grain ofrice. Now husk and rice, both come from
the same seed. Rice is the equivalent of God in man, while the
husk can becompared to desire which reduces God to man. Therefore,
My formula is:
LIFE + DESIRE = MAN
LIFE - DESIRE = GOD
In what way can life without desire make
Gods of men?
Life without desire means the realization of
the pure, genuine self that is Atma. Bound to desire, the self
degenerates into selfishness. Atma turns into ego. The way of
self-realization is to cleanse the self of this ego of
selfishness. Then you reach a state of consciousness beyond the
mind or intellect, revealing the true self that is God. The mind
is like a cloth that covers and stifles consciousness, the threads
of which are desires. If we give up the desires, the threads fall
and the cloth disappears, revealing our true nature. That is what
the Vedanta (epic of ancient wisdom and knowledge) means when it
enjoins that one must get rid of the ego to realize oneself.
You mean that the mind of man as such
creates the block between man and God?
Yes. One must make a distinction between the
mind that is the ego, and the real self that is consciousness. The
latter helps us to cross the frontiers of the ego-mind and become
aware of oneself as the witness of truth. Normally the scientist
of the mind looks outside to what can be perceived by the senses
existing in the world of the mind to ask: What is this? The
scientist of consciousness, on the other hand, always looks inside
to that which is beyond the senses or the grasp of the mind to
ask: What is that?
One has, therefore, to rise beyond the mind to
consciousness to achieve self-realization. To gain the infinite,
universal Atma, the embodied self must break out of the puny,
finite little prison of individuality. Desire belongs to the
senses, the brain, the mind; once you become free of it, you
realize the self, Atma, consciousness, enlightenment, and become
one with the cosmic power. Self realization is God-realization.
Thus man reaches God.
What is the significance of the vibuthi
(holy ash) and the trinkets that you materialize and give to
people? Is there any need for a Godman to demonstrate such
miracles which any magician can conjure?
So far as I am concerned this is evidence of My
divinity. It is not by any means an exhibition of divinity. All
performances of magic, as you know are done for the sake of
income. These are tricks of the magicians trade. They constitute a
kind of legalized cheating, the transfer of an object from one
place to another by a trick of the hand which goes unnoticed. They
involve no siddhi (occult power) or miraculous power.
What I do is quite a different act of creation. It is neither
magic, nor is it siddhi power either. For one thing, I seek no
return. For another, I do not cheat people by transferring objects,
but I create them. Again, I do so not because of any need or
desire of exhibition of My powers. For Me this is a kind of
calling card to convince people of My love for them and secure
their devotion in return. Since love is formless, I do
materialisation as evidence of My love. It is merely a symbol.
Still I do not understand why you should
materialize rings, bracelets, watches and those kinds of trinkets.
Most people desire talismans as symbolic of My
protection. So I provide them. When they are in trouble they feel
the grip of the ring, bracelet or watch to remember Me and call Me
to their rescue so that I can help them. On the other hand, if I
give them something they cannot wear, they are likely to store it
and forget about it.
The main thing is that these trinkets or
talismans, by whatever name you call them, give people a sense of
security and protection they need in times of troubles or crises
and create a symbolic link covering the long distances between
them and Myself. When the devotees need Me, these objects flash
the message as if by wireless and I instantly come to their
I am sorry to be persistent, Swamiji, but
isn't the gift of an Omega or HMT watch an act of cheating the
company or breach of its patent?
I assure you there is no such thing. It would
be cheating the company or breaching the patent if it were a case
of transfer of the watch from one place to the other. But I do not
transfer; I totally create. Whatever I will, instantly
materializes. I know of no company that has complained about any
breach of patent.
What about vibuthi materialized by you?
We would like to know its relevance because your critics are
trying to discredit you by sending around magicians who produce
exact replicas of vibuthi.
What I materialize is a manifestation of
divinity with a potent significance as well as symbolism. It is
symbolic of the cosmic, immortal and infinite nature of all forms
of God, Atma or the spirit -- that is, what is left when
everything worldly, transient and changeable has burnt away.
I have spoken to you of the imperative of a
desireless life. After Shiva had burnt the God of desire, Kama,
into a heap of ashes, he adorned himself with the ash to shine as
the conqueror of desire. When Kama was destroyed, Prema reigned as
the Goddess of love. Such is the significance of ash.
In the first place, it is symbolic of the
life-death cycle in which everything ultimately reduces itself to
ash. "For dust thou art, and unto dust shall thou returnest." Ash
or dust is the final condition of things. It cannot undergo any
further change. In the spiritual context, it constitutes a warning
to the receiver to give up desire, to burn all passions,
attachments and temptations, and makes one pure in thought, word
It is in order to press home this lesson that I
materialize ash for those who come to Me with love and devotion.
Like the other materializations, it also acts as a talisman,
healing the sick and giving protection to those who need it. It is
the symbol of divinity, quite different from the magician's
trickery mentioned by you.
You are believed to have performed
miraculous cures to the extent of resurrecting the dead. There are
cases where you reportedly saved people from drowning and other
accidents in distant places. Medical experts have attested to
remote controlled surgical operations performed by you. How do you
By My own sankalpa -- that is, divine will and
power. As an Avathar, this power is intrinsic, inherent, total and
natural to My will and decision. I need no mantra (mystical
formula), no sadhana (spiritual practice), no tantra (sacred
writings) and no yantra (pilgrimage) to perform the so-called
miracles which are natural to My state. My powers are simply the
expression or assertion of the reality of goodness which merges Me
with everything, everywhere, at all times and places. The miracles
belong to the boundless power of God.
Now coming to the main points of your question,
this healing phenomena has a dual aspect. I can cure, save, even
resurrect people provided they are in a spiritually receptive
condition. It is like the positive and negative currents of
electricity. My capacity to heal can be compared to the positive
current. Your devotion to Me is like the negative current. Once
the two come together, the devotion provides what is called the
miracle of healing.
It is man's mind that is really responsible for
his illness or health. He himself is the cause or motivator of
either. So when it comes to healing or curing, the necessary faith
has to be created within his mind for the purpose. All I do is
invest himwith the confidence, will and power to cure himself. It
is My abounding love reciprocated by the intensity of the
devotee's faith in Me that produce the desired result.
So these are not siddhic powers or
magical tricks, as your critics suggest?
They are neither magical tricks nor siddhic
(occult) powers, which can come to everybody with the appropriate
discipline and yoga exercises, but My powers to protect, heal and
save people and materialize objects originate in God and can be
used only by an Avathar. They are in no way designed, disciplined
or developed, but flow from cosmic power.
Some say that you command invisible
spirits which can transfer objects from one place to another on
There is no need for Me to command invisible
spirits since My own divine will materializes the objects. I am
everything, everywhere, omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent;
and so whatever I will, instantly happens. Like the qualities of
truth, love and peace, these are things that generate the atmic
(godly) or cosmic forces behind the universe.
The critics of
Swamiji ask why Sai Baba does not help people in distress by
bringing rains in times of drought or creating food where there is
famine by means of his sankalpa shakti (divine power, universal
energy). Cannot an Avathar help humanity to control the natural
forces and prevent calamities like earthquakes, floods, droughts,
famine and epidemics?
This is precisely what I am doing by
incarnating the in-dwelling God in man to overcome such
calamities. There are two ways in which an Avathar can help
people: an instant solution as against a long term one.
Any instant solution would go against the
fundamental quality of nature itself as well against the karmic
law of cause and effect. Most people live in the material world of
their desires and egos, which is governed by this law. They reap
the fruits of their actions. This brings about their evolution or
devolution. If the Avathar intervenes to instantly solve their
problems, it would stop all action, development, even evolution.
This solution can be ruled out because it totally negates the
The other and more effective alternative
presents a long-term solution whereby the Avathar leads the people
themselves to a higher level of consciousness to enable them to
understand the truth of spiritual laws so that they may turn
towards righteousness and steadfastly work for better conditions.
This will relate them back to nature and the karmic law of
causation. This would then transcend the cycle of cause and effect
in which today they are involved as victims and thereby command
and control the natural forces to be able to avert the calamities
You mean that you are presently raising
the consciousness of mankind to a godlike condition to enable them
to command their own destiny?
Exactly. They would become shareholders of My
sankalpa shakti (divine power, universal energy). I have to work
through them, rouse the in-dwelling God in them and evolve them to
a higher reality in order to enable them to master the natural law
and forces. If I cure everything instantly, leaving the people at
their present levels of consciousness, they would soon mess up
things and be at one another's throats again with the result that
the same chaotic situation would develop in the world.
Suffering and misery are the inescapable acts
of the cosmic drama. God does not decree these calamities but man
invites them by way of retribution for his own evil deeds. This is
corrective punishment which induces mankind to give up the wrong
path and return to the right path so that he may experience the
godlike condition of sat-chit-ananda -- that is, an existence of
wisdom and bliss. All this is part of the grand synthesis in which
the negatives serve to glorify the positives. Thus death glorifies
immortality, ignorance glorifies wisdom, misery glorifies bliss,
night glorifies dawn.
So, finally, if the Avathar brings the
calamities mentioned by you to an immediate end, which I can do,
and do, when there is a great need, the whole drama of creation
with its karmic (universal, inescapable duty) law will collapse.
Remember, these calamities occur not because of what God has made
of man but really because of what man has made of man. Therefore,
man has to be unmade and remade with his ego destroyed and
replaced by a transcendent consciousness so that he may rise above
the karmic to command.
Have you succeeded in bringing about this
synthesis, Swamiji, particularly with the wealthy and powerful
I have not reached all of them as a class, but
to the extent that I am able to contact them individually, the
results are encouraging. The wealthy and powerful, of course,
present a difficult problem in the matter of transformation. They
need a special approach. The poor people, on the other hand, are
very cooperative. They understand, appreciate and help My plans
What is the solution to this escalating
conflict between wealth and power on one side, and poverty and
weakness on the other?
The transformation of both into a single
cooperative brotherhood on terms of equality without competition
or conflict. This can result only from truth and love. The main
issue is to fuse the two classes into one single class. The
problem, however, is one of bringing them together on a common
base or platform. Wealthy people live isolated in a certain state
or condition. The poor also are similarly isolated in another
state or condition. How do we bring them together?
I do so in many subtle ways by breaking the
barriers of wealth and poverty and creating a feeling of equality
and oneness between the poor and the rich. In this ashram
(spiritual community) you find them living and working together,
even performing menial labor on terms of complete equality. Here
there are no distinctions whatever, nor any special facilities for
the rich. They live, eat, work, worship and sleep like the poor.
All live like a community of workers to share the common
austerities of the ashram.
Despite our rigorous discipline, industrialists
and businessmen want to come here. Why? Because they secure peace
of mind beyond physical comfort which no wealth or power on earth
can purchase or provide.
Thus we open to them a wonderful new world of
spiritual treasures and they must sacrifice material wants and
comforts. My mission is to show them the way to peace of mind
which everybody, rich and poor alike, desires. In that process of
spiritual evolution, the seeker learns that this blissful state
cannot be purchased for money in a shop or gifted to one by
anybody but oneself. It can come only from the universal source of
divinity, the in-dwelling God that embraces poor and rich alike.
This concept creates a common fellowship, a brotherhood of give
and take between the wealthy and the poor. Those who have too much
are obliged to give up their unnecessary wants, while those who
have too little get their needs fulfilled.
After all, in spiritual terms, all mankind
belongs to one and the same class, caste or religion. The divine
principles in each and all of them derive from one and the same
God. This fundamental oneness has to be made manifest to them
through direct contact with spiritual realities and the persuasive
expanding power of love, till they become part of the universal
religion of work, worship and wisdom.
All this would be simple and welcome
evangel for the poor since they lose nothing and gain everything
from your philosophy, but what about the rich who have to lose all
if they followed it?
That is the crux of the problem. They simply
have to lose, surrender, submerge their false values if they want
My grace. So long as people continue to be slaves of materialistic
definitions of wealth and poverty, there can be no solution. I,
therefore, try to convert their minds and hearts to spiritual
values and truths.
After all, who is the richest man? One who has
the largest wants and, therefore, troubles and worries? Or one who
is satisfied with the barest necessities of life and, therefore,
is more or less desireless and comparatively happy? Judged from
this criterion of happiness, the poor are spiritually rich but the
rich are spiritually poor. It is not material but spiritual
satisfaction that ultimately makes life worth living.
As I have said before, life without desire
brings divinity to man; and those who seek My grace must shed
desire and greed. Riches provide a fatal temptation. They are the
source and cause of human bondage. The desire to raise the
standard of life can never be satisfied. It leads to
multiplication of wants and consequent troubles and frustrations.
The solution lies in our emphasis on the
quality as against the standard of life, on high thinking and
lowly living. The mind is the horse, the body the cart: to achieve
mental peace, you must put the horse of high thinking before the
cart of physicalcomfort.
This is sound philosophy but how do you
implement it in action?
The rich as well as the poor come to Sai Baba
to seek love, peace and liberation from their problems and
troubles. My prescription to them is absolute selflessness and
desirelessness. To the poor, this is a natural state or condition.
So My love flows to them to embrace their devotion. Thus they
obtain My grace.
The rich, on the other hand, cannot secure this
grace without surrendering their materialistic outlook and selfish
attachments. So it becomes obligatory for them to sacrifice
material greed to receive spiritual grace. I tell them:
Ego lives by getting and forgetting,
Love lives by giving and forgiving.
In this way, I change their mental attitude. I
transform their monkey-minds into loving, giving and forgiving
Monkey-minds, Baba -- what do you mean?
It is a kind of mentality that is used by
peasants to trap and destroy monkeys. When the peasant wants to
catch a monkey, he uses a big pot with a narrow mouth as a trap.
Inside the pot he puts edibles which the monkey loves. The monkey
finds the pot and puts its paws inside to grasp as much of the
stuff as it can hold. Once it does so, it is unable to pull out
its paws from the small mouthof the pot. It imagines that someone
inside the pot is holding its paws, so it struggles and attempts
to runaway with the pot, only to fail and get trapped. No one is
holding the monkey; it has trapped itself because of its greed. If
only it lets the stuff in its paws go, it will be free of bondage.
In the same way I tell rich people, man is
tempted by the wealth, pleasures and desires of the world. When he
gets lost in such attachment and suffers the consequences of
greed, he thinks that something is binding him down, capturing
him, destroying him. The moment he gives up material wealth and
desires, he will be free. I make him realize his bondage to the
monkey-mind and liberate himself.
Baba seems to be prescribing a kind of
spiritual socialism based on the conversion of wealth into a
trusteeship for the removal of poverty.
Yes, a trusteeship based on love, cooperation
and brotherhood. What else can one do? The change must evolve from
the heart; it cannot be imposed from outside. All materialist
doctrines have failed to bring about any real transformation.
There is no equality anywhere. Only spiritual transformation into
a desireless mentality can put through the imperative revolution
in human consciousness from which alone the desired changes can
We need to transform society from false to real
values. We have to convince people that the ideal of a high
standard of life is wrong. It must be replaced with a high level
of living and thinking on the basis of humility, morality,
compassion and detachment, as against the existing greed for
competitive luxury and conspicuous consumption. People have to be
convinced that the only way to rouse the latent divinity in them
is to master desires and conquer greed for pleasure and luxury
instead of being a slave to these false materialistic values.
Then I take it that the various
educational and social service organizations run by Baba -- some
3,000 in all -- are designed to create the cadres necessary for
bringing about the desired socioeconomic change by means of love
They are designed to put the new generation on
the Sai path of truth, righteousness, peace, love and nonviolence.
Their motto -- work is worship and duty is God -- seeks to bring
in the new social order related to Sathya -- that is, truth, and
dharma -- namely, right action.
India has been described as a rich
country of poor people. We have the wealth of the whole world
locked up in the bosom of our good earth. And yet the people
remain economically poor and backward. Have you any solution to
rehabilitate our economy?
Your analysis is correct. The solution to the
problem you have posed lies in hard work and increased production
on a cooperative basis. To achieve this, one has to rid people of
the disease of individuality, greed and selfishness. Every
individual must be taught to think and work in the broader concept
of society and its needs. Once that is done, there will be less
talk and more work.
Here again, it is the spiritual path that can
save this country and the world from the wrongs of a materialistic
order. What we need is a synthesis of the spiritual and material
aspects of life. That will provide man with the social conscience
and cooperative spirit imperative to the creation of national
wealth and prosperity through selfless, cooperative labor.
Very good counsel, Swamiji - but the
trouble is that all the wealth created by labor appears to find
its way into the pockets of a rich and powerful minority. Have you
a spiritual prescription for this inequality?
There is no doubt that the distribution is not
taking place properly. The existing doctrines of equality,
socialism, etc., have not succeeded in achieving equality in
distribution of wealth and property. The difficulty is that you
equalize, wealth, land and property by legalization, but can the
law bring about equality in the desires of the people? This
requires the healing touch of spiritualism.
To begin with, one has to cure desire and its
evil consequences. We must persuade the rich that desire and its
fulfillment in materialistic wants is an aspect of the monkey-mind
which can only harm them and put them under bondage. That alone
will solve the problem of inequality and maldistribution.
The rich will give up their extravagant wants,
the poor will get what they need and a little more; and this
process will bring about more equitable distribution.
To conclude this section, Swamiji, would
you sum up the main causes of India's social and economic
From a purely material viewpoint, it is a
question of supply and demand. Because of the overpowering
material values of our society, the demand is growing larger and
larger, while the supply remains the same or decreases. The
solution, obviously, is to increase the supply or decrease the
demand. Then, of course, there is the problem of growing
population. This triangular issue of economic imbalance needs to
be spiritualised if an effective solution is to be found.
It is here that our insistence on a desireless
life, in which human wants are reduced to the minimum needs, comes
to the rescue as the only possible way of restoring the social and
economic balance. Curb your desires, reduce your wants, live in
spiritual austerity, and the available material will be sufficient
for all humanity. More than that, the tensions of a competitive
socio-economic system will be dissolved and peace of mind will be
Life is like a journey in a vehicle between
birth and death. The body is the vehicle in which you are motoring
to death. The less luggage you carry the better. Why encumber
yourself with worldly riches and material comforts, when you may
have to change your course or even meet with some dislocation or
accident and, in any case, at the end of the journey you will have
to leave behind all your possessions accept your Atma? Would it
not be better to attend to the immortal spirit rather than waste
time which is running out on gaining wealth and securing comforts?
This is the logic of spiritualism with which I
seek to change the attitude of people.
Baba has already clarified most of the
issues raised by Dr. Narasimhiah and other critics. Some, however,
remain unanswered. Narasimhiah asks why you do not materialize a
pumpkin or a cucumber or a watch with a distinct mark to prove
that it is your creation and not a transfer of somebody else's
Pumpkins and cucumbers can be materialized as
easily as rings or objects. But these are perishable objects and
the whole point of materialization, as I have already explained,
lies in their permanence. That is why rings or watches become more
serviceable as talismans or means of contact and communication,
between the Avathar and his devotees.
The point they are trying to make is that big
objects like pumpkins cannot be transferred while small ones like
rings can be. But as I have repeatedly said, I do not transfer
things by a sleight-of-hand. I create them to be talismans.
Now coming to your question about a ring or
watch with a distinct mark to prove that it is My own creation,
would you like Me to materialize something for you?
Yes, Swamiji, I certainly would.
(Baba waved his hand in the air to produce a
silver ring bearing the inscription OM in the centre with Sai Ram
marks on the sides and held My right hand to gently put it on the
third finger. It was an exact fit and it was precisely what I
wanted from Baba.)
Thank you, Baba, you have answered the
question beautifully. Now to Narasimhiah's unanswered point
regarding the bogus Sai Krishna or Pandavapura exposed by his
committee as a fraud and a cheat. He alleges that the boy had your
I can assure you there is absolutely no
connection between him and Myself. His people have several times
attempted to arrange a meeting between us, but we have refused
their requests. Of course, thousands of people, as you saw this
morning, come here for darshan. There are others also who
masquerade as My disciples or make money using My name. As this
happens not only here but in other states and even abroad, we
cannot do anything about it. They expose themselves sooner or
later, as did this boy. I have absolutely no connection or
relationship with such people.
Committee wanted to investigate your miracles scientifically under
controlled conditions, as they put it. You rejected the proposal.
Would you like to comment on this controversy?
How can science which is bound to a physical
and materialist outlook investigate transcendental phenomena
beyond its scope, reach or comprehension? This is a fallacy on the
face of it. One belongs to the material and the other to a
spiritual plane. Science must confine its inquiry only to things
belonging to the human senses, while spiritualism transcends the
senses. If you want to understand the nature of spiritual power
you can do so only through the path of spirituality and not
science. What science has been able to unravel is merely a
fraction of the cosmic phenomena; it tends, however, to exaggerate
That is true, Swamiji, but science is
developing all the time so that the metaphysics of yesterday
become the physics of today.
Quite right, but it is still blind to the vast
and invisible world of consciousness. The very fact that science
is changing all the time proves its incapacity to investigate the
ultimate and absolute truth. Some time ago, scientists maintained
that the atom cannot be broken, but recently they succeeded in
breaking it. They are still ignorant about the realities of the
pranic force behind the atom, which is the least of its
Science is merely a glow-worm in the light and
splendor of the sun. It is true that it can research, discover and
gather a lot of information about nature and its material
functions and use it for the development of worldly things.
Spiritualism, on the other hand, reigns over the cosmic field
where science has no place. That is why some discoveries of
science are useful while others can be disastrous.
As I have said before, Dr Narasimhiah and his
group are like the Telugu men who go to the cinema to see a Tamil
film. They will see only the dancing, the fighting and violence,
the heroes and villains, the star with a beautiful face and these
kinds of superficial things, but they will lose the subtler
aspects such as the music and the poetry, the plot, the dialogue,
the jokes and the like.
However, as I have said again and again, those
who want to understand Me are welcome here. It is the spirit of
the investigation that is important. Foreign parapsychologists
have come here and examined Me in such a positive and constructive
spirit. You have seen their reports. They do not write letters or
make public demands.
Narasimhiah's approach was improper; that is
why I rejected it. If it were not so, he would have been welcome.
I do not call people here so that they may bow to a God. I want
them to come, see, hear, study, observe, experience and realize
Baba. Then only, they will understand Me and appreciate the
Dr. Narasimhiah maintains that according
to science, "Nothing can be created out of nothing." You have
evidently negated this law of science with a transcendental
formula for controlling cosmic energy and producing paranormal
power. Can you explain this mystery?
The formula that nothing can be created out of
nothing is appropriate to the limited field and dimensions of
science. It does not at all apply to the transcendental field and
dimensions of spirituality. In the latter field, anything can be
created by the supreme will. All that exists can be made to
disappear and what does not exist can be made to appear.
Our history and tradition, scripture as well as
literature, are full of such incidents which they call miracles.
The material laws and formulas simply do not apply to divinity.
For Me this is not a matter of any mystery or mystique. What I
will, happens: what I order, materializes.
The Vice-Chancellor appears to ridicule
your statement that "There is God in us all." He asks: "Is this
not pure escapism? How can God be so unsure of Himself?" Your
His questions contradict the very basis of
Indian philosophy as well as that of most religions. All our
scriptures assert that God is present in everyone. According to
Vivekananda, "God is present in all." The only thing that is
manifest and common to the whole world and, in fact, governs and
directs the entire universe, is divinity. Nothing else really
exists except divinity.
Mine is no escapism but the fundamental and
eternal truth. I say so not because I am unsure of My own
divinity. It is My confidence in its absolute and total
authenticity that makes Me affirm this fact. It is the scientists
who are so unsure of themselves that they indulge in escapist
For example, they say that the moon is
lifeless. Simultaneously, they maintain that all matter consists
of moving atoms. Now isn't the moon also a conglomerate of the
same moving atoms? Then how can it be lifeless? There is no matter
which does not consist of atoms, electrons, neutrons and protons,
which are also constantly moving. This energy, too, is God.
So also there is no human being in whom there
is no divinity. To say there is no God in man is like saying that
there is no atom in the moon or any large lump of matter. The
omnipresence of God has been described in our ancient texts as:
"ano baniyam mahatoo maniyam" (God is a small particle in the
smallest of particles and a large mass in the largest of masses).
In this context, how can one say that God is not in man?
Another pertinent issue raised by your
critics is that you show a preference for wealthy and powerful
people as opposed to the poor and week in the matter of divine
gifts, miracle cures and individual darshans. Is this true? If so,
This is wrong. I never see or make any
distinction between the rich and the poor. I only look at them
from the view point of their devotion, their desires, the
sacrifice they are willing to make and their troubles. You were
here this morning and saw hundreds of people, a few rich, the
majority poor. Did you find Me making any distinction? All those I
brought with Me to this room were poor and weak, sick or troubled.
In My view, those who appear to the world as
wealthy or powerful persons really bring to Me their troubled
hearts and sick minds. I cure them by asking them to surrender
material wealth and power to spiritual peace and grace.
From what Baba has hitherto said, it
appears that your mission is to enable mankind to rediscover and
incarnate its lost godliness. Am I right?
You are right. When man turns inward to realize
his true self, then God will become manifest to him.
Self-realization is God-realization. In simple words, it is the
realization that you are not just a body and mind with physical
organs, but there is within you a self - the Atma that is God -
distinct from these perishable things. This self is omnipotent,
omnipresent and omniscient. The comprehension of this truth puts
you on the correct path to God-realization.
So your objective can be summed up as a
brotherhood of humanity to be achieved through the doctrine of
Yes, what else can save the world from
thermonuclear fires? Everything points to the terror of
conflagration coming; and My mission is to preempt the fires by
reestablishing dharma and the spiritual law of one God, one
religion, one language embracing one humanity.
I preach only one religion of love for all,
which alone can integrate the human race into a brotherhood of man
under the fatherhood of God. I know only one language of the heart
beyond the mind or the intellect which relates man to man and
mankind to God, thereby creating mutual understanding, cooperation
and community life in peace and harmony. On this basis I want to
build one humanity without any religious, caste or other barriers
in a universal empire of love which would enable My devotees to
feel the whole world as their family.
Well said, Baba -- but wouldn't this
dharma with its Hindu orientation conflict with the established
No, it will not do anything of the kind because
My objective is the establishment of sanathana dharma, which
believes in one God aspropitiated by the founders of all
religions. So none has to give up his religion or deity, but
through them worship the one God in all. I have come not to
disturb or destroy but to confirm and vindicate everyone in his
But how will that prevent a nuclear
By removing all causes, sources, barriers and
provocations of class, caste, creed, color and race, and replacing
the existing hate and violence with love and non-violence. I
expect to provide humanity with an evangel of peaceful cooperation
to replace the present escalation to death by co-destruction.
R.K.Karanjia: Thank you, Swamiji. I am
all the more grateful to you because I really did not expect you
to answer the whole long list of my questions.