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In September
Dato. J. Jagadeesan came to North America from his home in
Malaysia to give talks in several cities in both the USA and
Canada. After his talk in Vancouver on September 4th 2001 we were
happy to invite him to our home in Langley for a day of rest
before his next speaking engagement and during that time he very
kindly consented to be interviewed.
An interview with Jagadeesan
David : What was the nature of your
spiritual background before you came in contact with Sai Baba?
Jaga: Spiritual background, I
cannot really say, because what is spiritual, but my religious
background, I can tell you, was nil. Sai Baba, in my second
interview, told the people sitting there that I was an agnostic.
I thought that I was an atheist, so I went back home and checked
the dictionary. I realised that he may have been more accurate
than me! The dictionary defines an atheist as someone who does
not believe in God and an agnostic as someone who thinks something
may be there, but he is not really concerned about it. So I
probably was an agnostic. Actually I wasn't a bad fellow, I kept
a very strict code of conduct for myself. My father died when I
was about seven years old and as a teenager I used to go out with
a pretty wild crowd. My relations told my mother that I was going
to get totally out of line, but my mother told them "I trust my
son" and I never betrayed that trust. I never smoked and I never
drank, even though I was mixing with a crowd of the biggest
smokers and drinkers. So I did believe in God, but not in the God
of any one particular spiritual path.
When I was thirty two I first came
into contact with Sai Baba. I thought he was a fraud and I
attacked him viciously. I used to make fun of him. I would say
"Well, if God is imagination, then the Avatar is double
imagination!" and "Did God create Man? No, Man created God
because, being weak-minded, he needed a crutch. So God is an
invention of Man!" I used to meet Sai Baba devotees, who told me
that he could materialise things with a wave of his hand, to which
I would reply "And that is why he wears long sleeves, to hide all
the stuff that he brings out." Devotees also told me that vibhuti would often appear on his pictures. I used to make a joke
out of this by going to devotees homes and removing any dust that
was on them saying "See, this is vibhuti. If you don't clean your
house for a whole week, you will get a lot of vibhuti!" I told
them that they were being naïve, believing in all this vibhuti
nonsense. It was just not possible, it was unscientific. Anyway
that was my state of mind, so to speak.
David: Tell us a little bit about
your conversion. It must have been quite a shock.
Jaga: The conversion was very
dramatic. I can even specify the exact time when I became a Sai
Baba devotee! It was 10.30 PM on June 8th 1976. I
was in my home in Malaysia and there of was a gentleman from Sri
Lanka, called Mr Rajah, many Sri Lankans know him because he was a
famous singer, staying in my aunt's house across the road. He was
a devotee of Sai Baba and was talking about him all the time and
so I wanted to make fun of this man. I used to go to my aunt's
house every evening. On the evening of June 8th 1976 I
went across to the house as usual, and it was a surreal evening.
The moment I stepped into the house Sai Baba took over. I saw
this book on the table with Sai Baba's picture on it. I looked at
it, and in my mind I said "Avatar? I don't think so". I felt
very arrogant in my mind. I curiously flipped the pages open and
came across a picture of an old man. I asked my aunt who it was
and she said that it was Shirdi Sai Baba. I asked "Who is that?"
She replied "A previous incarnation of Sathya Sai Baba". I said
"Oh my God, you mean these guys come in series!". My comment
started the argument again and we argued from eight o clock to ten
thirty. It was a two and a half hours debate, with my aunt and Mr
Rajah defending Sai Baba and me attacking him. At ten thirty, at
the height of my arrogance, I mentally challenged Sai Baba, saying
"If you are who they say you are, give me a sign" and almost
immediately vibhuti began to appear on the picture. Now at that
time none of us had ever seen any vibhuti, none of us had ever
seen any manifestations like that. The funny thing was that at
the end of the evening everybody in the house started accusing me
of putting the vibhuti on the picture as a joke, and I was the
only one who knew that I hadn't done it! This was the ultimate
proof for me, because if someone had called me to the house and
shown me the vibhuti I would never have believed them. I would
have thought that they had put it there. I now had to protest my
innocence, and no-one would believe me! It was a very strange
phenomenon. So this was the actual moment of my transformation.
For the first time in my life I realised that there was a power
beyond science, and that this power was not a blind, unhearing
power. This power could hear me and could respond to me. For me,
the most important thing was that this power could come into my
physical world in the form of holy ash. Whether this power was in
heaven or in space didn't bother me, but if this power could come
into my world, I thought to myself, then, why am I wasting my
time. This was my first yearning to seek the source of this
power.
David: Tell us about your first
visit to see Sai Baba. What happened on it?
Jaga: My first visit was very
interesting. At the time I was working for the Ministry of
Industry and we used to go to Europe and America and Japan for
conferences four or five times a year. I was actually due to go
to Paris for a conference and so I decided to take four days leave
and on the way there to go and visit Sai Baba. I must tell you a
little side story here. Before I left on the trip my mother said
to me that if I was going to India for only four days perhaps it
would be prudent to make an appointment to see Sai Baba. So I
called a friend who worked for an Indian company in Malaysia, and
who owed me a favour, and I asked him to make an appointment. He
assured me there would be no problem. He would contact his
headquarters in Bangalore and they would make the appointment to
see Sai Baba. This man did not know much about Sai Baba! He
called back one week later and said "Sir, my headquarters tells me
that they can fix a meeting for you with any minister in India,
but with Sai Baba it is impossible!". I was actually very pleased
about this in a way. Anyway I went to India and a lot of miracles
happened to me on the way but eventually I ended up in Puttaparthi
sitting in darshan and on the third day Swami spoke to me.
I was sitting in this huge crowd at
darshan and, of course, being of the Indian race, I merged with
the ocean of faces that was there since I looked like any other
Indian. I have to say here that visiting India was a big culture
shock to me and I was sitting there feeling very lonely. Sai Baba
walked through the crowd and he came straight up to me and he
looked at me and said "Hi, Malaysia". I was so amazed that all I
could say was "Yes, Sir". Then he called me for an interview and
what was wonderful about this was that on this particular day I
was the only one that he called. In the interview room he
started speaking to me like a father. Now my father passed away
when I was only seven years old. At the age of 32 years old I
found my father again. It was Sai Baba. He treated me like a
little child. He hugged me, he pinched my cheek, he patted my
head and he showered me with so much love. Now we all think that
love is an emotion, but standing in front of Sai Baba I realised
that love is not an emotion, it is an energy. His energy was just
enfolding me and standing in front of him I felt this incredible
love flowing all over me. A feeling of great humility welled up
inside me and I said to myself "My God, feeling this divine energy
of love, how could I ever have opposed him? I had better
apologise to him". Now I could not bring myself to tell him that
I had been actively opposed to him, so I thought I would put it
mildly and I said "Swami, please forgive me, because only four
months ago I was a disbeliever". Sai Baba replied "Not only a
disbeliever, but strong opposition, strong opposition". My knees
gave way and I just collapsed on the floor crying, not silent
tears but like a child, really loudly. Sai Baba said "Ssshhh,
people outside will hear. Don't cry, don't cry, Swami knows
everything" and he raised me back on my feet again.
Now my mother tongue was Tamil, but
for most of my life I never spoke Tamil because I used English.
My wife and I spoke English. My Tamil is very bad but,
nevertheless, on the night of the incident that I have described,
when vibuthi appeared on the photograph, I went back home and I
composed my first song to Sai Baba in Tamil. This was the start
of an ongoing process. To date 950 songs have come out of me and
I have produced many tapes in both English and Tamil. At the
time that I first went to see Sai Baba I had produced 32 songs and
I had written them down in a little booklet. I handed this over
to him and I said "Swami, thank you for the songs" because, for
me, there was no question but that he was the composer. Swami
held me by my shoulders and said "Don't worry, you are my
instrument. Spread it, spread it". At the time I did not
understand the meaning of this but now I see that I am indeed
playing a small role in his mission. "Swami" I said "In Malaysia
I am singing to your picture, can I sing one song directly to you
now". He said "Oh, no. You come this evening and you bring the
other Malaysians with you." Now I did not know that any
Malaysians were there at that time, so I said "Swami, I came
alone, I don't know any other Malaysians." Sai Baba replied
"There are 32 Malaysians in the ashram, come this evening." Now
what is strange about this is that normally Sai Baba is always
asking "How many in your group?" but this was the first and the
only time that he told me how many people were there. This is the
game that he plays with us. It is the curtain of Maya that he
keeps throwing in front of us, confusing us and deluding us. We
must realise that Sai Baba is not here to prove every minute that
he is God, he is here to make us understand that we are divine.
He is not here to prove his divinity but, if we are lucky, he may,
just for a minute, open the curtain of Maya and let us glimpse his
divinity. Then he will close the curtain again and once more we
will get caught up in the drama. This is the thing that people
fail to understand. Sai Baba is not here to prove that he is
God. A father does not have to prove to his children that he is
their father. You expect the father to give his children gifts
and, of course, on occasions, to scold or to punish them. Swami
is just like that.
David: What is it about Sai Baba's
teachings that appeals to you?
Jaga: Somebody once asked me that
if the incident of the vibhuti had not happened in my life, would
I have ever become a Sai Baba devotee? I honestly don't know, but
having found Swami I know that he has given me direction in my
life. He called me twice the first time that I was there. In
the second interview, in front of everyone, he said "Jagadeesan, I
want you to go back to Malaysia and I want you to be president of
the seva dals." I did not even know what seva dal meant and I
thought that he was asking me to be president of the Sai
Organisation in Malaysia, so I said "Not me, Swami, I am too
young, find somebody older". He said "No, no, you go and get the
devotees to do service." Now in my life in Malaysia I was a
director of investment in the Ministry of Industry, I would get
about fifteen invitations to cocktails and dinners every week. I
had a very busy lifestyle and so I told Swami that I did not think
that I would have enough time to do this. Swami just turned away
and asked me to sing. Anyway, when I went back to Malaysia my
life changed. I told all my associates not to entertain me after
office hours because my time was far too precious. From the time
that Swami revealed himself as the Avatar until today he has given
an ocean of speeches, but we do not need not drink the whole ocean
to know the taste. So when I talk to devotees I simply say that I
am going to give you some drops from the ocean of Swami's
teachings so that you can know the taste.
There are five principle drops in
the ocean. (1) Belief in God. Believe that He exists.
This belief should be unshakeable. He is known by many names, by
many forms, and the fact that He does not answer your calls
sometimes, does not mean that He is not listening. It could be
because your question may be wrong or you may not be deserving of
an answer. (2) Follow your own religion, no matter
what religion you follow. If you are a Christian, then become a
better Christian, if you are a Hindu, then become a better
Hindu, if you are a Buddhist, then become a better Buddhist.
Every religion can teach us the path to Godliness and to
goodness. (3) Respect. Whereas many in the World talk
about religious tolerance, Sai devotees are not supposed to have
religious tolerance because tolerance implies that you don't like
their religion but you will tolerate it. Sai Baba says that you
must respect and revere all religions. All religions teach the
one primal truth, namely, that all religions come from the one God
and so we should respect and revere all religions. (4) Uphold
human values. Human values are the essence of all the
religions and Sai Baba teaches that there are five great human
values - truth, right-conduct, peace, love and non-violence.
First uphold these values in your own life and then promote them
in society. (5) Selfless service to all Mankind.
If you truly believe in the brotherhood of Man and the fatherhood
of God then go out and serve your brothers and sisters.
Everything that Sai Baba says is based on these five principles.
This is what he wants us to do. I have dedicated my life now to
service. Whilst doing this service and, in particular, working
with the different faiths, my life has been one great adventure,
interspersed with amazing miracles. I have tried to bring people
together. In Malaysia there are many different religious groups
and so I tell them that although we may not be able to pray in the
same temples, surely, outside the temples we can all serve God
together. So perhaps the greatest thing that Sai Baba has done
for me is to free my mind from compartmentalisation. He has freed
me from individual distinctions and made me a more universal
person.
David: What is the greatest
manifestation or miracle you have witnessed with Sai Baba?
Jaga: I think, for me, the greatest
miracle was my conversion, which I have already told you about
but, following on from this, I began to see Sai Baba everywhere.
It was so funny, and I would not only see him, but I would also
see Ganesha, Krishna and Buddha as well. I was seeing Sai Baba
along side me on the roadside when I was out jogging, at work, at
home, in fact everywhere. It was so strange. I felt that I was
going mad. When I was in my second interview with Sai Baba I told
him about this phenomenon. He said "You think it is imagination,
but it is not. It is a vision. Cultivate, cultivate." I thought
that he was going to call me again for a third interview on the
day that I was due to leave, but he didn't, he ignored me, and
that really upset me. As I was leaving Prashanti Nilayam in my
taxi I thought to myself "Swami, I am going now, surely you could
at least wave goodbye to me". As we drove down the road away
from the ashram I decided to stop to take a film of Sai Gita,
Swami's elephant, with the little 8mm camera that I had. At that
time, 1976, Sai Gita was quite small. I had finished taking the
film and was walking back to my taxi when my eyes looked up at the
hill behind. I saw an incredible sight, huge figures of Sai
Baba, Krishna and Lord Subramanyam were all standing there and
waving to me! I was stunned, I couldn't take it in and so I put
my head down and walked towards the taxi. I felt tears welling up
within me. Once inside the taxi I looked out of the window. I
could still see them there, waving to me. I just started crying.
I cried and cried and cried and cried, and I dared not lift my
head up, because every time I lifted my head up I could see them
standing there on the hill waving to me. No one else in the taxi
could see them, only me. It took me about an hour before I could
calm down. That was a very dramatic manifestation for me. I
have, of course, seen him materialise and transform many objects
but the thing that is the greatest miracle for me is his
transformation of people. I am a classic example, but there have
been many others. He has transformed selfish, alcoholic,
drug-addicted, materialistic people into incredibly selfless
people, who exist only to serve society. For me, personally, that
is the greatest miracle of Sai Baba.
David: Would you like to share with
us how Sai Baba interacted with you over the death of your wife?
Jaga: I was in Prashanti Nilayam in
November 1996. Whilst there Swami gave me two responsibilities,
firstly, to organise the Chinese New Year programme and, secondly,
to organise a world-wide Sai conference. I had reached Madras
airport on my way home, when I received a telephone call from my
daughter telling me that my wife had passed away. Now my wife was
the healthiest person in the world, I never knew her to be ill at
all, so I was completely stunned by this news. The day before
her death she had telephoned many people to arrange a meeting at
six o'clock the very next evening, because I was coming back. A
big programme was planned. At six o'clock, when everyone had
come, she was still in her room and my kids, wondering why she had
not come down, found her room locked and there was no reply. They
broke the door down and they found her dead, in what is called the
padanamaskar position, that means as though she was bending down
and touching someone's feet in front of her. They, of course,
tried to resuscitate her and took her to the hospital but it was
all to no avail. After her cremation I kept some of her ashes and
I decided that as she loved to be in Prashanti Nilayam so much I
would take the ashes there. So fifteen days after her death I and
my four kids went to Puttaparthi to see Sai Baba. I had left
there only a short time before as a happy man and now I was
returning as a sorrowing widower.
Swami called us for an interview
almost at once. Now I knew all about the things that he had told
other people on the death of their spouses, so I was fully
prepared for what he was going to say. I knew that he would say
"I was there" and "She has come to me" and so on, but as we
entered the interview room for the first time after my wife's
death I started to cry. Just like a whiplash Sai Baba said
"Jagadeesan, where is your spirituality? Who was your wife before
marriage?" Then he turned to my children and said "Who was your
mother before birth?" When Swami makes statements like this, all
sorts of things begin to explode in your mind. It is not what he
is saying verbally that counts, it is what it brings forth from
within you. I knew that he was saying to me "Whose wife and whose
mother are you crying for now? Let us have no more nonsense about
this." Then, having been sharp with us, he was very kind and he
materialised rings for my two sons and pendants for my daughters
and a ring for me. He then called us into the inner interview
room. There he said to me "Jagadeesan, your wife used to pray to
me, saying ‘Swami, I want to merge with you, I want to merge with
you' and now her time has come." I must tell you here that Sai
Baba is on record as saying that the moment that a person is born,
so the date of their departure is also fixed, but it is hidden
from you. Neither your doctors nor your medical technology can
change this date by one minute. God's grace can intervene, but
why should He intervene except for extraordinary reasons. Sai
Baba then said "I was there." I knew that he was going to say
that, but I never expected what he was going to say next. He said
"I was there and she did this to me" - he then got out of his
chair and he bent down and imitated the padanamaskar position in
which my children had found my wife - "And she came to me." This
demonstration of his omnipresence and omniscience was, for me, a
shattering thing and for my children it was a healing moment.
David: You must be aware of all the
scandalous stories that are now circulating about Sai Baba. How
is it affecting Malaysia and how are you personally handling it?
Jaga: I say this to people. Look,
on the one side we have one hundred tons of the good deeds of Sai
Baba and then on the other side there is one pound of these
negative stories. Why do you focus on this one pound? First
examine the one hundred tons of his good deeds and then I will
talk with you about the one pound. Tell me which spiritual
leader in the world from Krishna to Christ has escaped
vilification and opposition? Avatars need the opposition to make
their light shine brighter. It is difficult to attack Sai Baba
because he does so much good, so this is a good opportunity for
some people who want to attack him! Attacks on Sai Baba go in
waves. About twenty years ago there was a book called ‘Lord of
the Air'. There was a big fuss at the time, but then it all died
down. There have been other waves since then. Recently a
negative video about Sai Baba was shown on our TV. As a result, a
journalist came to speak to me to get my comments about the
video. I said that I didn't want to see the video and she said
"Aren't you in self-denial?". I replied "No. I don't need any
proof to know that the sun exists, so why should I watch a video
which says that the sun doesn't exist?" I then showed the
journalist the evidence of all the incredible Sai work that we
have done in Malaysia, our human values programme, our voluntary
service etc. She was so amazed that when her report came out in
the newspaper she produced a very positive report. She turned the
whole thing around. So in Malaysia people know about the good
deeds that Sai Baba has done and they are ignoring all this
gossip. Christ said "By your works you will be known."
It is a fact that no one can avoid
negativity. People have attacked me on many occasions but the
more they attacked me, the more attention I got from Swami and so
I did not mind how much people attacked me! Let me tell you a
story. Some years ago there were many independent Sai centres in
Malaysia. I was trying to get them to come together, so I went
and asked Swami for help. Now there were a lot of people sitting
in the interview room at the time when I asked him. I had some
questions, typed out on a piece of paper, ready to ask him. I
said "Swami, should I form the Sathya Sai Council of Malaysia?"
and he said "Yes, go and do." I replied "But Swami, if I go home
and say that, they won't believe me." So Swami took my piece of
paper and under the questions that I had typed he signed his name
to show his approval. Now when I got back to Malaysia a few days
later my wife asked me what had happened in the interview room,
because people were saying that I had given Swami a piece of paper
asking for his authority to form the Sathya Sai Council of
Malaysia and that he had torn it up and thrown the pieces of paper
in my face! I couldn't believe it! How can people lie like this
and this story must have come from someone who was in the
interview room. Here is a classic example of someone who has
become negative in his mind and who therefore propagates negative
stories.
David: Sai Baba has talked about a
Golden Age that is to come and of the big changes that are soon
going to take place. What are your feelings about the future of
the planet and of Humanity on it?
Jaga: I cannot predict what is
going to happen, but it seems to me that not everyone is going to
experience a Golden Age. I believe that we all have to find our
own Golden Age. For example, here in British Columbia, today has
been a lovely Golden Age day for all of us, but for the poor man
living in Somalia life has been full of problems. We must make
the Golden Age for ourselves by creating one around us. The
Golden Age will not be a time when no problems exist. That may be
true of Heaven but not here, though, perhaps, even Heaven has
problems! The Golden Age to me means that you are in a state of
inner peace and contentment come what may. There may be
earthquakes, plagues and droughts etc., there certainly were in
the past, but if we all find the Golden Age for ourselves, then,
the aggregation of all the individuals who find it will make the
Golden Age for society as a whole. I am sure that in twenty years
time there will still be people who will never have heard of the
Avatar, it was so with Rama and Krishna, it will be the same with
Sai Baba. It is up to us to empower ourselves.
David: In the many years of your
relationship with Sai Baba has he revealed to you who he is?
Jaga: That is a very interesting
question. For me, personally, he is my father, but when people
ask me if Sai Baba is God, I am very frank with them. I say
"I
don't know, because I have never seen God, I don't know what He
looks like." If a man was to come from the jungle and I was to
show him this microphone and ask him what it is, he will tell me
that he doesn't know. He hasn't seen one before. However if I
tell him that it is a microphone, then, for the rest of his life
he will know what is a microphone. We recognise everything from a
point of reference, and we have no reference for God.
Nevertheless, all the holy scriptures describe God not by His
physical form but by His characteristics - omniscient, omnipotent
and omnipresent. Now Sai Baba is manifesting to all who come to
him many of the attributes ascribed to Divinity. Therefore, to
that extent, I say that Sai Baba is a manifestation of a
divine principle and note that I say divine principle not
God, because every religion has a different concept of God,
indeed, if you are a Hindu, then, you have more than one God! The
fact that Sai Baba has manifested physically all the energies of
Divinity still doesn't mean that he is God, except in the sense
that, as Sai Baba teaches, we are all God, we are all no different
from God. This viewpoint is surely acceptable to all who come to
him irrespective of the form of God that they choose to accept
and worship.
Source: Ramala Centre Newsletter,
September 2001,
http://www.ramalacentre.com/newsletter09_01_03.htm
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http://www.ramalacentre.com
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